Mexico Time to Wag the Dog Again!

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2RCO

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Seems it's once again came up that the drug war in Mexico is our fault and we aren't doing enough about those pesky guns.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_go_co/us_drug_war_guns

"While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, over 20,000, or around 87 percent, of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past 5 years originated in the United States," the GAO's Ford says in testimony prepared for a House subcommittee hearing on Thursday. The GAO is the investigative arm of Congress.

Engel said the firearms flowing illegally from the U.S. into Mexico have made the drug cartels' jobs easier.

Nope the drugs, gangs, and corruption couldn't be the problem it's all about those pesky guns:banghead:.
 
Those pesky politicians hire professional liars to write their press releases. The key word to look for is "traced". It is my understanding that only a small % of the guns seized were actually traced. The 87% has to be multiplied by that small % to get the real figure of how many guns came from the US of A. It's most likely 15 - 20%, rather than the bs figure being flung about.
 
Those pesky politicians hire professional liars to write their press releases. The key word to look for is "traced". It is my understanding that only a small % of the guns seized were actually traced. The 87% has to be multiplied by that small % to get the real figure of how many guns came from the US of A. It's most likely 15 - 20%, rather than the bs figure being flung about.

Probably a valid point, but since the importation of any firearm into Mexico is illegal I'm thinking it's the fault of the smugglers, and drug cartels that pay the smuggles. Oh yeah, and the Mexican Customs officials who don't do their job and secure the border.
 
Indeed, it seems the GAO's Ford has responded to John Lott's accurate criticism of the false testimony previously given by the ATF officials. Ford has take Lott's criticism to heart and very carefully says that it's "around 87 percent, of firearms seized . . . and traced." As Lott pointed out, this is really about 17% of the seized firearms.
 
Here's the prior ATF absurd lie while under oath:

William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."
 
Idea.

Tell ya what. I, personally, will go around, collecting Mexican nationals who are in this country illegally.

I will then promptly return them to Mexico, where I am to recieve all American firearms that are in that country illegally.

What's the matter Mexico? When the crap starts flowing into your country, it's not all fun and games anymore, is it?
 
Since its earliest days the Obama Administration, with full cooperation from the highest officials in the Mexican government, have tried to establish and perpetuate a myth that the principal source of firearms used by the drug cartels and other criminals in Mexico come from commercial sources and gun shows in the United States. They have repeatedly claimed that serial numbers and other information taken from firearms sized by Mexico’s military and police are turned over to the BATF&E in the United States, who then trace where they came from.

What neither the various spoke persons for the Obama White House, the BATF&E or the Mexican government explain – or at least usually gets reported – is that the Mexican authorities cherry-pick a small number of guns out of the total, and only submit information on those. This practice easily explains why the BATF&E, - not to mention others in the current U.S. Government – can say with a straight face that, “90% of the illegal guns used by the drug cartels in Mexico come from the United States.”

The obvious purpose for this continued charade is to build public support in the United States for more controls over the weapons most often cited in the reports, these being (so called) assault rifles, pistols with high-cap magazines and/or fire extra-high velocity ammunition, and rifles chambered to fire the .50 BMG round.

As a bonus they hope to stir up support for a close-the-gun-show-loophole law.

For a more factual report read the article posted below.



AP IMPACT: Mexico's weapons cache stymies tracing

By E. EDUARDO CASTILLO and MICHELLE ROBERTS (Associated Press Writers)
From Associated Press
May 06, 2009 1:57 PM EDT

MEXICO CITY - Deep inside a heavily guarded military warehouse, the evidence of Mexico's war on drug cartels is stacked two stories high: tens of thousands of seized weapons, from handguns and rifles to AK-47s, some with gun sights carved into the shape of a rooster or a horse's head.

The vault nestled in a Mexican military base is the government's largest stash of weapons - some 88,537 of them - seized from brutal drug gangs. The Associated Press was recently given rare and exclusive access to the secure facility.

The sheer size of the cache attests to the seemingly hopeless task of ever sorting and tracing the guns, possibly to trafficking rings that deliver weapons to Mexico. And security designed to keep the guns from getting back on the streets is so tight that even investigators have trouble getting the access they need.

The warehouse - on a main drag in northeastern Mexico City near the horse racing track - is surrounded by five rings of security. There are two military guards at the door and five more are in the lobby. Inside, another 10 soldiers sort, clean and catalog weapons. Some are dismantled and destroyed, a few assigned to the Mexican military.

The guns are stacked to the two-story ceiling in a warehouse the size of a small Wal-Mart. The rifles lie on 22 metal racks; the pistols hang from metal poles by their triggers.

The cavernous warehouse is impeccably clean, the only smell coming from the coffee the soldiers prepared for their rare visitors. The clash of metal and sounds of the soldiers at work echo off the walls.

The security, bolstered by closed-circuit cameras and motion detectors, makes the warehouse practically impenetrable, said Gen. Antonio Erasto Monsivais, who oversees the armory.

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006. But each weapon is a clue to how the cartels are getting arms, and possibly to the traffickers that brought them here.

The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border. Mexican gun laws are strict, especially compared to those in most U.S. border states.

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes - particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which handles the U.S. investigations, is at the mercy of local Mexican police for the amount and quality of the information.

"Many of these rural municipalities that may come into a gun seizure ... may not even know anything about tracing guns," ATF spokesman Thomas Mangan said.

A police officer in Mexico submits a description, serial number and distinctive markings of the gun. The weapons are then turned over to the military for storage in one of a dozen armories such as the one in Mexico City.

When U.S. investigators need additional details, as they often do, the request goes back to the original police officer, who must retrieve the gun from a military vault - sometimes hundreds of miles away.

Mexican police must ask permission each time they need to look at a stored gun, Monsivais said. Even if that permission is granted, the investigator cannot go past the metal fencing separating a reception desk and the shelves holding the guns. A soldier has to bring out the requested weapons.

The security, language differences and bureaucracy add up to a painstaking process, said J. Dewey Webb, special agent in charge of the ATF's Houston Field Division.

"The military does a very good job when the weapons come into their custody of securing them," he told the AP. "Because of the systems in Mexico, it's very difficult for us to get in."

Webb said recent talks between the two countries were beginning to ease access, but also noted other problems.

Many mistakes are made because of difficulty translating technical terms about firearms, Webb said. A Spanish-language version of eTrace, the Web-based method of submitting tracing information, won't be available until next year.

About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

U.S. agents need the information to track the gun back to the manufacturer and determine when it was made and what wholesaler it was shipped to, ATF spokeswoman Franceska Perot said. Agents follow the gun to the local licensed dealer who sold it and determine the buyer.

ATF offices around the U.S. are swamped with tracing requests, trying to determine who actually bought the weapons and whether they were part of a firearms trafficking scheme. The ATF has sent an extra 100 agents to Houston to help unclog the 700-weapon backlog as part of its Project Gunrunner.

The seized weapons are kept in the vaults as long as they are needed as evidence, Monsivais said. Most have been there for years, an indication of how slow criminal investigations proceed and how few crimes are ever solved.
Indeed, the ATF gave the AP data showing the average "time to crime" - the time between when a gun was sold and when it was seized in a crime - is 14 years.

That's an average of four years longer than guns in American crimes, the ATF said. The older the street age, the harder it can be to track how the gun wound up at a crime scene.

When the criminal investigations are complete, most of the weapons are destroyed and melted down. Some of the more powerful arms, such as M16 machine guns and sniper rifles, are added to the military's own arsenal. Showpieces are destined for museums.

Most of the guns traced were originally sold by U.S. dealers in border states, with more than half purchased in Texas. Not only does Texas have the most gun dealers of any state, it makes up 1,200 miles of the 2,100-mile U.S.-Mexico border, with many of the established drug and trafficking routes.
Details on the 2008 tracing requests are not yet available.

It's less clear how cartels are getting military-grade weapons. Amid the shelves of pistols and rifles, there is a 9 mm grenade launcher and a portable shoulder-fired anti-tank rocket launcher.

Such military-grade weaponry represents a tiny fraction of the seized weapons. But Monsivais said he's most worried about the rising caliber of assault rifles and semi-automatic guns that have been found.

"There are weapons that have a lot of firepower and great penetration, like the .50-caliber Barrett ... which can penetrate armored vehicles, body armor, and that normally only militaries use," Monsivais said.

Thirty percent of AK-47 assault rifles seized have been modified to become fully automatic. He said about three of every 1,000 AR-15 assault rifles have been modified to take .50-caliber bullets, the kind of high-powered ammunition designed for sniper rifles.

"In my experience, I had never seen a modified AR-15 rifle," Monsivais said. "It's something new, and it is to a certain extent worrisome that they can have and use this type of weapon."

---
Roberts reported from San Antonio. Associated Press writers Alexandra Olson in Mexico City and Juan A. Lozano in Houston contributed to this story.

*******************************************************

http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20090506/4a010b40_3ca6_1552620090506609271651

It is well said that you can fool some people all of the time, and everyone some of the time, but you can't fool everybody all of the time. :fire:
 
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What's that quote? "If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, it becomes the truth." I think that's what their going for on this one.
 
They also leave out how many of those firearms traced back to the US were originally sourced by DoD and sent to the Mexican military.

I'd bet it's a pretty large number.
 
What really bothers me is that if 90% of the guns are from America why are the majority of weapons captured by the Mexican police are all automatics. The NRA has also questioned the 90% figure.
 
Sitting on a cache of 300,000+ guns. Only 89,000 have been released for inspection. Only 20,000 can be traced. 90% of those 20,000 can be traced to the United States. So 18,000 guns can be traced to the United States of 300,000+. Thus tallies at 6% of all total firearms can be traced back to the United States. Oh and lets not forget that even CNN reported that at one time 80,000 soldiers had been reported to be deserters. And they took those nice Colt manufactured M-16s with FA switches.

If you listen to NPR, I know I know, you'll also know that Guatemala is suffering from the Mexican cartels wiping out the Guatemalan cartels, and the Mexican murderers were former soldiers in the Mexican military.

Hey if Mexicao wants to stop the trafficking of guns then lets build that thing we call a wall. A double fence to start with later added on with steel plate barriers. Oh and to really help we could prevent Mexican trucks from entering the U.S.. And crack down on the human smuggling. You know, cut those funding means for the drug dealers. But hey, it'd be much easier for the Mexican government and the idiots in government to strip us of our rights.
 
What really bothers me is that if 90% of the guns are from America why are the majority of weapons captured by the Mexican police are all automatics.

Well that's sort of my point. The guns may very well be coming from the US but since they are automatics they are likely stolen from the Mexican military. Which means they were sent to Mexico legally by the US government itself, rather than smuggled across the border as they want us to believe.

A corrupt Mexican military member selling guns? Oh, that could never happen, must be those pesky citizens in Arizona and Texas :rolleyes:
 
They also leave out how many of those firearms traced back to the US were originally sourced by DoD and sent to the Mexican military.

Bingo we have a winner!!!!
 
There was some similar nonsense in the San Antonio Express News this morning when I read the paper.

San Antonio Express News said:
From staff and wire reports -

WASHINGTON — The U.S. government lacks a coordinated strategy to stem the flow of weapons into Mexico, a failure that has fueled the rise of powerful criminal cartels and violence in that nation, a government watchdog agency report being released today says.

The report by the independent Government Accountability Office represents the first government assessment of the issue and offers blistering conclusions that are likely to affect the national debate over the role of American weaponry as Mexican violence threatens to leech across the border.

GAO investigators were critical of the two principal U.S. agencies — Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) — for not working together.

“The U.S. government lacks a strategy to address arms trafficking to Mexico,” the report says. “Individual U.S. agencies have undertaken a variety of activities and projects to combat arms trafficking to Mexico, but they are not part of a comprehensive, U.S. governmentwide strategy for addressing the problem.”

The GAO is the investigative arm of Congress.

Citing ATF data, investigator Jess Ford says that over the past three years, more than 90 percent of the firearms traced after being seized in Mexico have come from the U.S. The figure is slightly less over a five-year period.

“While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, over 20,000, or around 87 percent, of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past five years originated in the United States,” Ford says in testimony prepared for a House subcommittee hearing today.

A series of reports last year in the San Antonio Express-News revealed that Texas is a principal conduit for weapons smuggled into Mexico.

In 2007, Texas sellers were the source of 1,131 guns found discarded at shootings in Mexico or confiscated from the drug cartels, the ATF says.

That's more than twice the number of runner-up California and more than the combined total of 14 top states.

A November raid in Reynosa by the Mexican army turned up a trove of drug cartel weapons that included 540 rifles, 165 hand grenades, 500,000 rounds of ammunition, TNT and other munitions.

The ATF traced 383 serial numbers from rifles seized in the raid and found 80 percent of those weapons came from licensed firearms dealers in Texas, the Express-News reported.

A draft of the GAO report cites recent U.S. intelligence indicating most of the weapons are being smuggled in specifically for the drug syndicates and are being used not only against the Mexican government, but to help the cartels in their efforts to control drug distribution in U.S. cities.

White House officials said that while they couldn't comment on a report that hasn't been released publicly, they've taken steps in recent months to upgrade efforts to stem the illegal flow of U.S. weapons to Mexico.

Earlier this month, for instance, the administration announced a new Southwest Border Counternarcotics Strategy, which includes a section on arms trafficking.

The GAO report's authors, however, said that strategy and similar White House efforts are embryonic and unlikely to significantly improve the situation any time soon.

They also said the broader $1.4 billion Bush-era effort known as the Merida Initiative provides no dedicated funding to address the issue of weapons trafficking.

The draft report cited several examples of the miscommunication between ICE and ATF, including:

• During one operation, an ICE agent unknowingly covertly kept watch on the activities of an undercover ATF agent who was investigating a suspected trafficker.

• ATF didn't tell ICE about a covert operation where ATF agents delivered weapons across the border in an attempt to ferret out the Mexican organizations receiving illegal arms.

• In some cases, ICE and ATF refused to give each other required documentation for investigations.

The Associated Press and Chicago Tribune contributed to this report, which includes material from the Express-News archives.

Makes me sick

Looks like it's the same thing worded a bit different here and there.
 
Hey,I am ALWAYS willing to "modify an AR15 "5.56 upper...to take a .50 BMG round.I have a drill bit...I will gladly take thier money with one caveat:Let me get out of the direction of any shrapnel/secondaries when the Darwin Award Recipient from Los Zetas decides to touch off a test shot(Hee hee hee!)
 
Wouldn't that be a nice sound byte:
William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated as military weapons given to Mexico from the federal government of the United States."
Close the gov't loophole.
 
A 9mm grenade launcher, even smaller than the one in Aliens...
My tinfoil hat squeezes every time I hear about the Mexican firearm connection - why would Mexico be so adamant about the US disarming when it actually doesn't affect them in any way? They have to know the truth, so why would they want US disarmed?
 
why would Mexico be so adamant about the US disarming when it actually doesn't affect them in any way? They have to know the truth, so why would they want US disarmed?


My opinion is that the whole Minute Men thing got under their skin in a big way since many of the Minute Men went legally armed and occasionally even confronted illegals while armed.

This did not sit very well at all in Mexico.
 
Maybe if Mexico would let honest citizens arm themselves the drug lords wouldn't be all powerful.

If Mexico wants us to change our gun laws as a result of internal corruption within their military and govt they can stick it!
 
"Maybe if Mexico would let honest citizens arm themselves the drug lords wouldn't be all powerful."

And we would have more trouble here in America.

Imagine thousands of "armed" illegals crossing the border.
 
I don't believe for a minute that 90% of firearms seized in Mexico came in from the US. They probably gave a pre-chosen "random" sample to trace. Why aren't thousands here being arrested for straw purchases?

Those cartels don't need to smuggle in weapons from the US; I'm guessing they get bulk discount prices from other sources. I wouldn't be surprised if the military has been selling weapons on the sly as well.
 
Shameless--Call me crazy but Mexico has a large labor force, fairly decent natural resources and quite a few things going for it. Now if they could just get rid of the Corruption in government and up the education of their people, and along with that throw in some constitutional liberties---they could become more efficient in the world marketplace and pull more people out of poverty. Wouldn't it be nice to have a country to the South of us where the people had it good enough they'd want to stay there and not flood us.

If we want to fix illegal immigration getting Mexico to be a better place for it's people would be a great start.

I have not hate for Mexican people and think they deserve the same liberties we have here. I'd like to see this occur in their own country so they don't feel like breaking the law and coming here.
 
"Figures lie and liars figure."

- My Mom

It is thus obvious that Mexico has 100% successfully closed

All of its other borders, including the Pacific and Caribbean seas,

To arms running.

Congratulations, Mexico!

Now, if Mexico just went ahead and occupied

That unruly and lawless border province called Texas,

All would be good.

No drugs, no guns.

And no tax bill for "the fence."

Or am I repeating history here?

The above is obviously a sarcasm,

Aimed at those who posit private USA gunshops

As primary arms dealers for Mexico.

Oh yeah, stupid me, I forgot, Mexico does not deal

With the international gun market, either legally or illegally.


cheers

isher
 
2RCO,

I agree it would be nice, if Mexico was self efficent, and a much nicer
place for it's citizens.

However, many illegals are NOT here because we have jobs for them.

They are here for the free living the taxpayers provide.:fire:
 
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