First Lead Bullet Reloading Attempt...

[Quizcat]

The following photos represent my first attempt at reloading lead bullets. I obtained the lead bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. They are their stock standard #IP2, 170 grain, .401" diameter, lead alloy bullets, 18BRN Hardness, and they are wad cutters.

I loaded these with varying charges of Power Pistol, loading each in a progression of two grain increments from 5.0 grains to 6.0 grains.

I intend to test them out one at a time, and judge their performance, mainly just by feel, recoil, accuracy, feeding function, etc...

I just wanted to photograph these, and have some of you more experienced guys take a look at my final product. Let me know if you see any glaring issues that might visually indicate trouble brewing.

All the bullets fit well into a Wilson MAX pistol gauge, and their overall lengths each read 1.128."

I flared the casing, charged each individually precisely on an RCBS 500 series scale, then put them in the Hornady LNL Progressive to seat the bullet (Lee 4 die set), and then crimped using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, which is in the very last station of the press.

I'll be testing these using a Taurus PT140, 40S&W, Millennium Pro, which has standard rifling.

Left to Right, 6.0 grains down to 5.0 grains of Power Pistol


With the bullet type being used


Next to a factory jacketed FP load


Wilson Gauge


Wilson Gauge


Let me know if these look visually acceptable. But, more importantly, let me know if you notice any glaring issues. Thanks in advance!

 

[Certaindeaf]

They look great. Did you do "the plunk test" in your pistol barrel?

 

[Lost Sheep]

You are very well organized (except for the two grain thing).

I can see nothing to worry about.

Are you using the Lee Factory Crimp Die at all or just crimping (taper crimping) with the "Lead Taper Crimp Die" (with which I am not familiar)"?

The Lee FCD (because of the extra sizing ring they have) can SOMETIMES squish lead bullets to an undersized condition (from which lead does not spring back), resulting in poor bullet tension which can let the bullet get pushed back into the case when chambering (setback), which can increase pressure and/or result in jams. Undersized lead bullets also deposit lead in your barrel worse than they should because of hot gasses blowing by the bullet. Like I said, SOMETIMES.

Lost Sheep

 

[Quizcat]

My mistake, I referred to the crimp die and a taper crimp die. It is actually a Lee Factory Crimp Die in the last station. And, I also made a typo. There is no such thing as a "Lead" Taper Crimp or a "Lead" Factory Crimp Die. Sorry about that! :banghead:

I do still need to slug the bore...I fully intend to do that. I know it seems that I've put the cart before the horse, but I have not taken the time to research the proper ball size for slugging. I still want to do it...Can anyone advise where I can obtain the lead balls for slugging, and what ball size is needed to slug the bore for the .40S&W?

I do wonder why the lead bullet manufacturer doesn't offer a wider selection of cast lead bullets in the .40S&W, instead of only offering the .401" diameter, if in fact slugging the bore is what should determine the diameter ordered. I know they'll custom make them to whatever diameter is needed based on slugging the bore. But, their website seems to suggest that most of the time when reloading for .40S&W it is safe to use the .401" diameter bullets. Is that generally the case, or am I taking my life into my own hands, or jeopardizing my firearm, by using the .401" generic?

I guess my intention is to test out these prototypes, see how the generic bullets do. I'll shoot them in my Taurus, which has conventional rifling versus polygonal rifling. And, the Taurus is a little less expensive were my prototypes to cause some kind of catastrophic failure, which I DO NOT anticipate!!! But, I did purchase a Lewis Lead Removal kit just in case the generic .401" bullets leave lead deposits in the bore. I am sort of looking at the test of the generics as a learning experience, hoping to determine for myself if the need to slug for the Taurus is even necessary. I suppose using the Lewis Lead Cleaning Kit will reveal that necessity based on what amount of lead, if any, is revealed on the cleaning patches.

Regarding the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, I am using the Lee 4-die set, and seat the bullet with the seating die, which has no crimp whatsoever, and strictly seats the bullet. Then, next station, I crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp Die that comes with the 4 die set, which is also the same process I use when loading Berry's plated "RS" bullets.

I was a little concerned that the overall length of the finished cartridges might be slightly long. The Lyman Reloading Data book for the 175 grain bullet says 1.125" overall length, and mine are turning out to be 1.128" overall length. I am using a 170 grain bullet instead of the 175 grain shown in the data book, but I don't believe that a discrepancy of .003" is a worry with respect to overall length. They are fitting well into the Wilson MAX gauge with respect to overall length and diameter.

I didn't change the settings on the bullet seating die, and just opted to use the same settings I've been using for the Berry's Plated Bullets. The bullets appear to be seating just short of the rim where the cone begins. So, it seems about right to me. What do you all think?

I've set the crimp so that if I pull plated bullets, I don't notice any crimp marks whatsoever on them. I have to admit it's hard to tell because the wad cutter lead bullets are almost impossible to remove from the casing for crimp inspection once set and crimped. So, I haven't been able to check them specifically. The RCBS bullet puller I have doesn't seem capable of grasping the wad cutter shape sufficiently to pull them out of the casing for inspection. They're seated slightly behind the start of the cone, and there's nothing for the bullet puller collet to grab onto. I couldn't seem to get the kinetic bullet puller to extract the bullets either. I don't believe the crimp is holding the bullet too tightly in place. I suppose if the kinetic energy isn't sufficient to remove the bullet from the casing, then maybe any danger of excessive set back won't be an issue either.

I did notice that after flaring the casing to accept the bullet, I definitely needed to put some kind of crimp on the casing in order to fit into the gauge. Once crimped, they fit into the gauge fine. But, prior to crimping, the flare in the case mouth is slightly too big to pass the gauge mouth. Does anyone notice from the photos if the crimp appears to be excessive?

Would I be better served putting a Taper Crimp Die in the last station versus the Lee Factory Crimp Die? Or, should I omit the crimp operation altogether? If I eliminate the crimp, then I am stuck with having to contend with the belled case mouth, since it won't chamber, or fit in the gauge. If you do recommend that I switch to a taper crimp die from the Lee Factory Crimp die, what is your recommendation for the best brand of taper crimp die to use? I have to admit, I am developing kind of a partiality to Lee, and their Carbide dies. Seems so much easier than using lubricant, etc...Does anyone make a carbide taper crimp die, or is there even a necessity for such a thing? And, of course, there is also the consideration that the Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die prepares the entire cartridge to chamber as part of the crimping process. But, I must admit, with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, it does take a little more muscle, and there is quite a jolt going into the die. But, when the cartridge comes out, it's good to go.

 

[dragon813gt]

Did you pull any of the bullets to see if they were swaged down by the FCD? I have had zero success with the FCD and lead bullets. But each FCD is different and yours may or may not be fine. Pull a bullet and measure the diameter. If they're still .401 you're fine. If they're less then don't use the FCD and just use the seat/crimp die.


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[ljnowell]

The seating die in a lee 4 die set does have a crimp function. All of them I have seen do anyway.

 

[Quizcat]

I haven't been able to pull the bullets using my RCBS Bullet Puller because the collets don't seem able to grab the bullet due to the shape of the wad cutter, and the kinetic puller doesn't seem to work pulling them either. I hate those kinetic pullers. They never seem to work very well for me. I have no trouble pulling plated bullets with the RCBS puller. But, maybe the difficulty pulling bullets with the kinetic puller is an indication that by using the the FCD, everything is just a little too tight, and swagging is occurring.

I believe I'll experiment with the bullet seating die first, maybe make a few more prototypes, and see if I can generate a crimp using the bullet seating die in lieu of using the FCD.

Seems to me if can put a slight taper crimp on the cartridge, without using the FCD, and everything still fits in the gauge, I don't really see a need to use the FCD. It would actually eliminate one operation, and cut down on a potential for swagging the bullet.

 

[LiveLife]

As ljnowell posted, the 9mm/40S&W/45ACP combination seating and taper crimp die will seat the bullet and apply taper crimp at the same time. If you are applying almost "neutral" taper crimp (just returning the case mouth flare back to flat), you shouldn't be shaving the side of the bullet when seating and taper crimping in one step. If you are using a lot of "negative" taper crimp that digs into the side of the bullet, it will be better to seat and taper crimp in separate steps.

For jacketed/plated bullets, I will typically add .020" to the diameter of the bullet to determine my taper crimp (so for .400" diameter jacketed/plated bulllet, .420" taper crimp). This will result in a slightly "negative" taper crimp that will slightly dig into the side of the bullet.

For larger diameter lead bullets, as rcmodel usually suggests to account for varying thickness of the case wall, adding .021" to the diameter of the bullet will apply a neutral taper crimp that is back flat against the bullet (so for .401" diameter lead bullet, .422" taper crimp). If you want to apply less than .420" taper crimp, you'll need a separate taper crimp die operation to avoid shaving the side of the bullet - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8223971#post8223971

Would I be better served putting a Taper Crimp Die in the last station versus the Lee Factory Crimp Die?

I do not recommend the use of FCD for straight walled semi-auto pistol cases. Why? According to Lee Precision, the carbide ring at the bottom of the FCD for straight walled semi-auto pistol calibers are sized for .400" jacketed diameter bullets to ensure reliable feeding/chambering of finished rounds in SAAMI spec barrel chambers.

With .401"+ sized lead bullets, you do not want to post-size or reduce the diameter of the lead bullet which will decrease the bullet-to-barrel fit that will increase gas cutting and leading. Many factory barrels are over sized (larger than .400" groove diameter) and reducing the diameter of the lead bullet will increase the leading issue - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

If you are using "neutral" taper crimp around .422", I would try using the combination seat/taper crimp die. If you want to use "negative" taper crimp and not shave the bullet, I would use a separate taper crimp die operation.

I seat and taper crimp in one step. As I posted in your other thread, here are different 40S&W Missouri bullets sized .401" with .422" taper crimp. For 170 gr SWC (IDP #2), I use 1.120" OAL and it works well in several pistols but you should be using the OAL that works for your pistol/barrel/magazine.

BTW, 2004 Alliant load data lists 6.9 gr as max powder charge for 180 gr Laser Cast lead bullet which is harder than 18 BHN Missouri bullet. If the groove diameter of the PT140 barrel is larger than .400", at 5.0-6.0 gr of Power Pistol, you may not deform/bump the base of the bullet enough to properly obturate to seal with the barrel and experience leading. Depending on your initial range test, you may need to use higher powder test charges.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'd still do the plunk test. That gage will not tell you if the shoulder of that SWC will jam into the chamber throat of your barrel, not going all the way into battery.
I'd hate to see you load up a bunch only to find out they are too long when shecking it is so simple.
Also, I'd make up a few dummies and see if they'll hand cycle through the gun. It's an easy way to see if a given profile is at leat potentially viable. Pulling bullets (in your case you say it's impossible) is no fun.

Yay, bds is on the job.. yer lucky.

 

[sbrader]

They are fitting well into the Wilson MAX gauge with respect to overall length and diameter.

Quizcat,
I wouldn't trust that the Max gauge tells you anything about whether the rounds will fit into YOUR pistols. I have them, also, and have used them to test against SAAMI specs, but they can be within spec and still not work in your particular barrel. Always do a plunk test to make sure the round drops easily into the chamber and drops out freely when you turn it back over. That is the only true fit test for your reloaded rounds.

Rounds at the max length will not properly load into my son's XD40sc (notoriously short throats). I shorten them a bit and they shoot like a dream. We have had problems with the MBC semi-wadcutters not feeding well in his pistol. I switched to RNFP bullets and they load and shoot great. Just make sure you don't go under the min length!

Let us know how the shooting goes!

Scott

 

[LiveLife]

I hate those kinetic pullers. They never seem to work very well for me. I have no trouble pulling plated bullets with the RCBS puller.

Well, that's because many plated bullets are sized smaller at .400" and have less neck tension than larger sized .401" lead bullets. With jacketed/plated bullets, a moderate tap with the kinetic puller will work but with larger lead bullets, it takes several firm whacks for me.

I believe I'll experiment with the bullet seating die first, maybe make a few more prototypes, and see if I can generate a crimp using the bullet seating die in lieu of using the FCD.

Yes, returning the flare back to flat is really not applying any taper crimp but you can do both operations with the combination die. Try it and see how it goes.

Seems to me if can put a slight taper crimp on the cartridge, without using the FCD, and everything still fits in the gauge, I don't really see a need to use the FCD. It would actually eliminate one operation, and cut down on a potential for swagging the bullet.

Yes, millions of consistent and accurate rounds were loaded by reloaders around the world before the advent of the FCD. I consider FCD an important tool to have for fixing out of round/spec bullets and bulged/Glocked cases, especially if you are using Dillon resizing die that won't fully resize the base of the bulged cases.

 

[StandingTall]

I haven't been able to pull the bullets using my RCBS Bullet Puller because the collets don't seem able to grab the bullet due to the shape of the wad cutter, and the kinetic puller doesn't seem to work pulling them either. I hate those kinetic pullers. They never seem to work very well for me. I have no trouble pulling plated bullets with the RCBS puller. But, maybe the difficulty pulling bullets with the kinetic puller is an indication that by using the the FCD, everything is just a little too tight, and swagging is occurring.

From the instructions for the RCBS bullet puller:

 

[Quizcat]

Wow! Thanks for all the great information. I will consider everyone's sage advice...

I am dealing with a little bit of case bulge...not as much as a Glock, but it's there. The Taurus has a slightly unsupported chamber, a condition and effects that I seem to be able to reduce if I use powder charges that are on the middle to lower end of the scale, around 6.0 with Power Pistol. But, with the issue of "obturating" to contend with, I will have to pay close attention to making sure the charge rate will be sufficient to obturate.

I had considered switching away from the Taurus due to the unsupported barrel issue/case bulge, maybe going to a S&W M&P9C, which has a fully supported chamber. It may be that with the added considerations concerning lead bullets, and a fully supported chamber, it may prove to be a better overall condition, and it may also reduce my incentive to use minimum charge rates to reduce bulge, and mitigate case wear through work hardening the brass base of the casing.

I also considered a Steyr S-Series A1 that has a fully supported chamber. But, it has a polygonal barrel, not particularly a good situation for lead bullets, so I understand.

At the risk of the Taurus bashers coming out of the woodwork, I just happen to like the Taurus too much...I'm very reluctant to switch away from it to improve the conditions for using lead bullets. I'm going to do a little more experimenting before making a decision in favor of another pistol, just to see how things go with the Taurus.

Having never tested using lead bullets, and knowing that I only have a few rounds prepared for the initial test, what signs should I be looking for? Just the obvious, barrel leading, accuracy, feeding issues? Not really sure how much only having six rounds will reveal to me in the initial testing phase with respect to barrel leading.

Where do I obtain the lead balls to slug the bore, and what size lead ball should I order for .40S&W?

 

[918v]

With lead bullets, the plunk test will only lead to leading.

 

[LiveLife]

I am dealing with a little bit of case bulge. The Taurus has a slightly unsupported chamber, a condition that I seem to be able to effect if I use powder charges that are on the lower end of the scale. But, with the issue of "obturating" to contend with, I will have to pay close attention to the charge rate.

Been there! I have used Universal, HS-6, WSF and AutoComp for 40S&W (I have PowerPistol on hand to be tested next) but found that I needed to push the slower burning powders at high-to-near max load data for optimal obturation and in turn accuracy.

40S&W/Glock 22 combo is my match caliber/pistol and I had to contend with the case bulge using near max load data but found lower mid-to-high range load data target loads with W231/HP-38 did not bulge the case base but still generated enough of powder ignition gas "pulse" to deform/obturate the Missouri 40S&W bullets to not lead in my M&P40 and Glock22/27 with Lone Wolf barrels.

I would certainly recommend you continue with your range testing of PT140 using 18 BHN Missouri bullet but you may consider trying a different powder like W231/HP-38 (same powder but HP-38 is cheaper) using 1999 Winchester load data for your 170 gr SWC lead bullet.

At the risk of the Taurus bashers coming out of the woodwork, I just happen to like the Taurus too much...I am reluctant to switch away from it to improve the conditions for using lead bullets. I'm going to do a little more experimenting before making a change, just to see how things go with the Taurus.

Well, I like my oversized factory barrel PT145 enough to work out an accurate target load using 12 BHN Missouri bullet (Bullseye #1) that obturates well even with light/lighter target loads (5.0 gr W231/HP-38 and 4.0 gr Promo/Red Dot). As I posted on your other thread, if your PT140 has oversized barrel and you can't identify a powder/charge combo that won't lead the barrel, you can request 40S&W in 15 BHN from Missouri Bullet to try - http://www.missouribullet.com/faq.php
Many may suggest you try a larger sized lead bullet, but with semi-auto pistols, you may experience feeding/chambering issues with bulged rounds from larger sized bullets, especially in tighter chambered match barrels.

Q: Can I request special sizing or can I change the type of alloy I want used?
A: Yes. There is a minimum order of 1,000 bullets and a $10.00 set up fee for special orders. These bullets require a special set up and will be made as time permits.

Where do I obtain the lead balls to slug the bore, and what size lead ball should I order for .40S&W?

You can use lead fishing weights or flatten a lead bullet to .410" with a hammer.

Having never tested using lead bullets, and knowing that I only have a few rounds prepared for the initial test, what signs should I be looking for? Just the obvious, barrel leading, accuracy, feeding issues? Not really sure how much only having six rounds will reveal to me in the initial testing phase with respect to barrel leading...

If your test rounds will lead, you'll see leading with the first few rounds shot in the barrel - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

Definition of leading. Leading is the deposition of significant amounts of bullet metal on the bore. It can take many forms -- streaks, chunks, splotches, films, etc. (more on this in a minute). It's important to recognize that the mere presence of streaks in the bore is not an indication of leading; many types of bullet lube (especially the commercial hard lubes) leave perfectly innocuous streaks in the barrel that have no negative impact on firearm performance (if a wet patch removes the deposit, it probably wasn't lead).

These are the load development and testing steps I use:

1. Determine the Max OAL by using the barrel drop test. Using .422" taper crimp and starting at 1.350"-1.400" OAL, incrementally decrease the OAL until dummy round (no powder/primer) falls into the chamber freely with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the rifling.

2. Determine the Ideal OAL. Load the Max OAL dummy round in the magazine and feed/chamber by manually releasing the slide. Incrementally decrease the OAL until the dummy round reliably feed/chambers.

3. Conduct full range powder workup using Ideal OAL. Load 10 rounds of each incremental .2-.3 gr powder charge from start to max powder charge (if load data only shows max charge, use 10% reduction as start charge). First determine the powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract the spent case. Next, watch the accuracy trend to determine the most accurate powder charge range. Use the lowest accuracy powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide as target load for that pistol. If you have several pistols, use the Ideal OAL/powder charge that will work in all pistols.

 

[rcmodel]

With lead bullets, the plunk test will only lead to leading.

How exactly is doing the plunk test to see if the bullet is seated deep enough to miss your rifling leade going to lead to leading???

rc

 

[Quizcat]

Was wondering that too about the plunk test, how it would contribute to leading...



With regard to the plunk test, all the rounds seem to chamber in the barrel perfectly and rotate...




This may not be an accurate way to determine bullet diameter without pulling it completely out of the casing, but since I can't seem to extract the SWC from the casing once crimped, I decided to mic the rim of the casing just to see what I come up with. Seems to mic at around .421" + about .00025" to .0003."

Rim thickness on the casings mic at .010" per side. So, times two, .010" per side, if I had a bullet diameter remaining at .401", overall cartridge diameter after the bullet is seated and crimped, would logically be at .421" + low tenths. It appears that the FCD is not swagging the bullet.

If the FCD were swagging the bullet, the diameter of the round would have read .400." correct. It appears from the overall measurement of the casing with the bullet seated and crimped, and it measuring .421" +, that it would be about perfect for a bore groove that measures .001" over .400". Now I have to slug the bore, and see where we really are...

 

[dragon813gt]

You should not have any problems pulling them with a kinetic puller. I'm able to pull tightly crimped 357 mag bullets with no problem. Just takes a few more wacks then usual.


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[Certaindeaf]

I wouldn't bother pulling any. Shoot a few for accuracy/leading/function/signs of pressure etc and then perhaps pull some if there's a need.. or be willing to bin them. It's very good that you have mucho neck tension.. however, sometimes it's a very good thing to be able to pull bullets, to wit, if they are inaccurate and or lead, to see if they are swaged down too far in the seating/"crimping" stage etc.
Looks good so far but don't be afraid to whack the heck out of that mallet (on like a concrete floor) should the need arise.

 

[rcmodel]

You lost me on the rim thickness math!!

Rim thickness of .055" is just that. The thickness of the rim behind the extractor groove.
It has nothing at all to do with case mouth thickness.

Actual Max case mouth thickness from the same drawing would figure .423" max O.D. case mouth - .4005" bullet = .0225" / 2 = brass thickness of .00125" per side.

But regardless of all that.

A factory load jacketed bullet taper-crimp at the case mouth should measure .421".
Since your lead bullets are .001" bigger, make yours .422" and see if the flair is totally straightened out.

rc

 

[Quizcat]

RCModel (other hobby of mine too by the way)...About the rim thickness specs, that was way off, based on a bogus internet search I did, and my misunderstanding the definition of what I was looking at.

When I thought about how ridiculous .055" sounded, I miked them myself. The actual "case mouth thickness", more accurately described, actually mics .010" per side.

So, crimped using the FCD, I am getting .421" + about .00025" total diameter. I could probably back off the FCD a bit, and it might take a little less elbow grease to crimp to .422" using the FCD.

I'm going to try the standard bullet seat/crimp die too. I want to get away from the FCD if I can, and hopefully everything will still chamber properly. I think if I can get away from the FCD, and just taper crimp them, I'll have more luck pulling the bullets too.

 

[rcmodel]

The actual rim thickness actually mics .010" per side.

No it doesn't.

The case mouth thickness might though.

rc

 

[Quizcat]

Precisely! I'll get it write eventually...

 

[LiveLife]

Quizcat, were you able to load some rounds without the use of the FCD using .422" taper crimp? And did they pass the barrel drop test? If they did, what OAL reliably fed/chambered from the magazine?


BTW, rcmodel is correct.

I used to consider .010" as the case wall thickness and added .020" to the diameter of the bullet for "flat or neutral" taper crimp. Guess what? Case wall thickness varies with headstamp and I have measured from .010" down to .008" and up to .013"+. So on an average, using .020" added to the diameter of the bullet will result in slight "negative" taper crimp that will indent the side of the bullet. This is OK for jacketed and plated bullets, but will result in shaving of the lead bullet - thus I now use .422" taper crimp for lead bullets.

With premium factory JHP rounds, I can see and measure .420" taper crimp but with factory "value" target rounds (some with plated bullets), I am seeing more .421" taper crimp with no negative taper crimp.

 

[tlmkr38]

THey look fine. If they fit the gauge and the barrel just shoot them. If they are accurate enough then load some more, if not then look at why.