First Lead Bullet Reloading Attempt...

[Striker Fired]

If you slug your barrel and find that .401" lead won't be ideal,(most likely you will need oversize) the only commercial caster that I found to make oversize .40 cal. bullets was Dardas. There may be one or two others, but I called most of the common(and many not common)and non did, onlt Dardas.
I now cast my own and have several molds made up so I can go .405(yes one Beretta needs them), but mostly .403".If you do go to Dardas, try some of his 155grSWC's. All my .40 liked them with some WSF or AA#5 undernieth.I had a 150gr swc mold to make my own.(I could actually supply you with a good sample of them to try out).

 

[918v]

In order force round to plunk, the bullet must be undersized for the throat/freebore/leade. If the bullet is undersized, it is not sealing. If the bullet is not sesling, there's gonna be gas leaking and subsequent leading.

I get zero leading, period. Even after 500 rounds.

You can figure out the proper seating depth by pressing the round into the chamber under finger pressure. You will be able to feel the case mouth bottom out against the end of the chamber. If you can't do this with light finger pressure then the OAL is too long.

 

[rcmodel]

In order force round to plunk, the bullet must be undersized for the throat/freebore/leade.

No it doesn't.

It has nothing to do with undersize bullets.
But all about the bullet type and OAL.

Whatever the bullet type, it needs to be seated short enough the front driving band on a LSWC, or jacketed bullet ogive isn't hitting the rifling.

If it is, it will pass the plunk test just fine, with no leading.

rc

 

[918v]

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

If your bullet is the same diameter as the freebore, the round will not chamber. The bullet has to he slightly undersized in order for the round to chamber. Look at BDS's drawings.

 

[Quizcat]

Quizcat, were you able to load some rounds without the use of the FCD using .422" taper crimp? And did they pass the barrel drop test?

Unfortunately, I got side tracked today...I'll load some more rounds with the FCD and report back my findings sometime this weekend.

 

[squarles67]

I load that same bullet with 6.5g of Power Pistol at 1.132 OAL. Works well in my M&P fullsize and gives me 1050 fps.

IMHO you went too low with your starting loads, 5g is 27% below the 6.9g max published by Alliant. 10% off max would be 6.2g starting. Just be careful you don't have a squib.

 

[Quizcat]

Doesn't the bullet lube take up the gap to a certain extent, and play a major roll sealing up the bore as well?

 

[LiveLife]

If you are new to reloading lead bullets, Glen Fryxell's chapter 7 on leading and chapter 5 on bullet lube are very informative.

 

[918v]

Doesn't the bullet lube take up the gap to a certain extent, and play a major roll sealing up the bore as well?

No. The lube remains in the lube ring. The base obturates the bore and pushes the bullet and lube toward the muzzle. The amount of lube in-between the bullet and the bore is not enough to make up the difference if the bullet is undersized by a significant amount.

But bullets being undersized for the bore is seldom a problem. The problem is the bullets are undersized for the throat. For example, a typical US domestic 9mm has s .355" bore, but a .357+" throat. If you load a .356" hardcast lead bullet, you will experience leading. Why? Because you have a gap of more than .002" between the bullet and the throat and the bullet will get gas cut before it ever starts moving. So what to do? Use a bullet that fits snugly in the throat. That way everything is sealed and ready to go without having to hope for obturation. But that round won't plunk. It will chamber with slight resistance, but it will chamber.

 

[Quizcat]

Quizcat, were you able to load some rounds without the use of the FCD

I did try loading some blank cartridges (no primer/no powder) this afternoon using the standard bullet seating die/taper crimping die. I started out with a resized, unprimed cartridge case that plunks perfectly in the pistol gauge.

I experimented with several, got the bullet depth right, and put a very slight taper crimp on the case mouth, just enough so that it would enter the pistol gauge without any problem.

The cartridge wouldn't plunk all the way down into the gauge. It hangs up around half way or three quarters of the way. It does plunk in the barrel of the Taurus PT140, no problem.

So, it appears that the bullet seating die/taper crimp die will work fine, and that the FCD isn't really necessary after all. Now, all that's left is to load some up, maybe increase the power charge up to around 6.2grains minimum, and see how they do. I may slug the bore first, just to see where I am before shooting them. I might as well learn the whole process...

 

[LiveLife]

Regardless of the gauge, what matters is whether your finished rounds will reliably feed/chamber in your pistol/barrel from the magazine, cycle the slide and produce accurate shot groups.

As to barrel's groove diameter, you can do a quick check with your calipers measuring groove-to-groove.

Looks like you are on track. Keep us posted!

 

[Quizcat]

Keep us posted!

If I am measuring correctly, the bore diameter, groove to groove, is .3885 to .3990." I measured two ways, with the ID jaws on a dial indicator micrometer inside the grooves at the end of the bore. I also slugged the bore using a lead fishing weight to make a reverse impression at the end of the bore, and measured the low spots in the lead impression using the OD jaws of the dial indicator micrometer. Sound about right for .401" diameter bullet to obturate?

 

[LiveLife]

40S&W groove diameter should be around .400" but looks like you should be "good to go" with .401" sized bullets.

 

[918v]

A .401" bullet will not obturate a .399" bore, but it will swage down to .399"

 

[Quizcat]

Ok, I'll load up 20 or so rounds for test, and report back one of these days.

Thanks all!

 

[Striker Fired]

Never, ever,ever,never rely on calipers for a reliable measuremnt! PERIOD
I am a machinist of 21yrs and will not even bother using my top of the line calipers to do this.They are way,way too easily off by a couple thou,which is enough to be just a guess.

 

[Quizcat]

Never, ever,ever,never rely on calipers for a reliable measurement!

Well, I have a choice of a cheap set of calipers or a cheap micrometer...

Not enough in the reloading budget for a Zeiss Coordinate Measuring Machine.

And, not even enough for a good set of calipers or a decent standard micrometer.

Even the process of slugging the bore with a lead fishing weight has me wondering about the potential for error with respect to the actual bore size down to tenths.

How can one reliably and realistically measure the bore grooves on a tight, virtually non-existent budget?

Well, maybe I have a little money for some kind of bore gauge or something, but even the cheapest of those are around $60.00, and I don't necessarily think they would be any more accurate than a calipers.

Any suggestions?

 

[Striker Fired]

Your cheap micrometer should work as long as it is zeroed. I know a mic is pricey and not needed for a lot of reloading things, so value wise there are better things to use limited money on. Otherwise if you push two slugs through your barrel and mail them to me I'd be happy to measure them for you,or maybe stop at a local machine shop to see if they would quickly measure them.
I just don't like calipers for things like this,they are too easy to vary sizes with. The .399 measurement is a dead givaway to me that somethings not right. There is a 98% chance that your barrel is really over.400,most likely in the .401-.402 range.Just my experience with Taurus and Beretta(Taurus and Beretta are somewhat together)Don't know the exact relationship going on,I do know the T101(T100?) is basicaly a Beretta 92 but made by Taurus

 

[LiveLife]

When the OP got smaller than .400" groove diameter measurement for the barrel, I figured the calipers might be off by .001"-.002" as most factory barrels tend to be .400"-.401"+.

My experience with 18 BHN Missouri bullets and some powders like W231/HP-38/Promo etc. at mid-to-high range 9mm/40S&W load data, powder charges will still work with .001" over barrels (.356"/.401") to minimize leading that results in slight smearing at the chamber end. And that's why I posted for OP to proceed with the range testing. My guess is that 6.2 gr start charge of Power Pistol may work to cycle the slide of PT140 but optimal accuracy maybe attained at slightly higher charges. Regardless, I think there's going to be a lot muzzle flash.



To OP, if you have any bulk component jacketed bullets, they should measure .400" diameter. If you don't, you could take your calipers down to the store and ask to measure some bullets.

Missouri 170 gr (IDP #2) bullet you have on hand should measure around .401".

If you have some factory ammunition on hand, measure the diameter of case mouth and bullet base. If .400" jacketed diameter bullet was used, the measurements should be .420"-.421" at the bullet base and less at the case mouth, depending on the taper crimp manufacturer used.

Remington Golden Saber 165 gr JHP measures slightly larger than .420" at the bullet base and between .419" to slightly less than .420" at the case mouth.

 

[Striker Fired]

I'd agree to trying and see how they go,no harm in it.I would look for lead strips on the leading(as in forward)edge of rifling.It will tell you if the bullets are sealing ok or are slightly skiding and stripping lead off. Shoot 20 or so.
As stated you will get a fire show with power Pistol .

 

[918v]

Never, ever,ever,never rely on calipers for a reliable measuremnt! PERIOD
I am a machinist of 21yrs and will not even bother using my top of the line calipers to do this.They are way,way too easily off by a couple thou,which is enough to be just a guess.

I disagree. I've been using calipers and micrometers for 20 years and they are consistently within .0005" of one another when measuring bullet diameters.

Now there are some things best left to specialized tooling, but not metallic cartridge reloading.

 

[Quizcat]

If you are new to reloading lead bullets, Glen Fryxell's chapter 7 on leading and chapter 5 on bullet lube are very informative.

Thanks for the chapter references...read them this morning, and learned a lot.

Ok, guys, I have (18) rounds made up, 6.2 grains, Power Pistol, 170 Grain IDP2's from Missouri Bullet Company, using the bullet seat/taper crimp die, OAL = 1.125." Everything plunks...

The way my education is progressing, I kind of have a hunch that my preference might be to purchase Round Nose in the future. I just have a sneaking feeling I'll like them better than wad cutters.

Somebody on here may have tried steering me in that direction before. But, I'm going to give the IDP2s a try. I occasionally travel toward the Kansas City area on business. Maybe Brad would swap the IDP2s out for Round Nose. I am sure he would do it, but the freight back there will eat me alive. Might as well hold onto them, and try swapping out if I get near Kansas City in my travels.

What would your preference be, the IDP2s or the Round Nose, based on the following criteria, and based also on being able to extract the bullets more easily.

My goal is to eventually load lead bullets, with the intention of practicing as close to self defense conditions with respect to recoil, etc...I carry 165Grain factory hollow point Corbon JHPs for concealed carry. If I can duplicate the recoil, etc...to simulate real self defense conditions at the range with respect to the way the pistol acts, etc...but do it more cheaply with lead, that's my goal, provided the accuracy is there too.

Although, I must say that this is kind of a hobby within a hobby. I have really enjoyed the process.

 

[Striker Fired]

I'm partial to swc(1st), TC(2nd),the rest(3rd).

 

[Quizcat]

When the OP got smaller than .400" groove diameter measurement for the barrel, I figured the calipers might be off by .001"-.002" as most factory barrels tend to be .400"-.401"+

I have a feeling I'm probably off .001." The bullet base measures .401" on the calipers. But, the bore is a lot more difficult to measure than the smooth OD of the bullet base. And, I just have a feeling it's probably me.

With respect to measuring the slugs, I am not even sure I did it correctly. I did not push them all the way through, just did the end of the barrel, tapped them in, and then tapped them out from the other side. I could see the marks that were left by the bore in the lead fishing weight, probably about .200" worth. I suspect I am supposed to be pushing them all the way through, right? Well, they were just a triangular shaped fishing weight, and little too wide to be pushing them all the way through. If I do it again, I want to find a weight that is more appropriate to the size of the bore, so I don't feel like I'm forcing too much down the bore. And, too, I just had a metal push rod, which I coated with electrical tape to protect the bore. I would feel much more comfortable using a wooden dowel rod instead. So, I was a little reluctant to take the slugging operation too far.

Oh well, I might give it another try some other time if I get over to the fishing department at Walmart one of these days. But, for now, I'll give these (18) rounds a test.

 

[Quizcat]

I'm partial to swc(1st), TC(2nd),the rest(3rd).

Oh, OK good! Well, maybe I'll like 'em then. I'll keep an open mind. I just selected them from hearing in the old days, probably 40 years ago, when we all mostly had just revolvers, that they were more accurate target shooting than some other types.

Are you shooting them in semi-autos or revolvers? I suspect that may make some difference with respect to my shooting them in a semi-auto versus a revolver, with regard to proper feed, eject, etc...I don't know if the SWC's are more accurate shot from a semi-auto or not, or even if that's all been disproved as a myth from the past with respect to accuracy.