First Pop Thread For Basicblur

[DPris]

Continuing on from the .22 thread:

Why is that first round pop so important to you?
What real difference does it make if it does occur?

In your mind, or in your documentation if you have any, how much less loud is it than an un-suppressed shot, and how much more loud is it than a second suppressed shot?

In my guns, I don't notice it.
If it's there, it's not loud enough to make any difference to me whatever.
It's still quieter than an un-suppressed shot.

I don't get Hollywood quiet out of either gun with the Sparrow.
I get a sufficient degree of sound reduction through all rounds fired in the Ruger that I can fire indoors without hearing protection.

Though the rifle barrel, only one load so far has been sub-sonic, but the rest were reduced enough in volume levels by suppressing the sound from the gases to leave me comfortable with firing extended sessions outdoors without a headset.
Indoors, I have not tried it & won't.

I'm not noticing a first round pop, and even if I did, it would have no importance to me.

Why is it such an issue for you?
Denis

 

[OcelotZ3]

Haven't noticed the so-called "FRP" with my Sparrow, certainly not after using it for a few years. Perhaps when it was new there was something like that.

I also often use line pulling gel with mine.

 

[yugorpk]

cough cough silencerco cough cough.

 

[basicblur]

Why is it such an issue for you?

OK, I'll play for one more post...

Important to me? Not hardly, for the reasons I've already posted.
I also posted that if it was that important to me (and it may be to new shoppers), here are the reasons (which I won't bother to post again).

Apparently it's eating at you enough to start a new thread on the subject!

I know you don't want to see / hear these, but here's a couple of videos (for those considering a purchase):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztFUm6YxXw4
Skip to the 2:50 second mark.

Here's another (you just have to watch the first two shots):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrUnPuqCpoM

Before I bought my first 22 can (research first, buy second), Silencerco had a video where they tested various maker 22 cans on both pistols and rifles.
Pretty damn gutsy of 'em, as the AAC Element (not the Element 2) was audibly AND scientifically quieter than their own Sparrow! They posted the decibels of each shot and gave the total.
This video is what made the decision for me to go with the Element 2 as my first 22 can. I did buy a Sparrow (and later a White Sparrow), partially in appreciation for a company having the guts to put out a video which actually showed a competitor's product outperforming theirs.

Matter of fact, I found the videos! (Silencerco no longer has them on their website)

New Stainless 22Sparrow 22LR Suppressor Industry Comparison "PART 1"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_AXHihPvBc
Go to the very end to see the SS Sparrow, and pay attention to both the audio and DB reading differences between round 1 & 2.

New Stainless 22Sparrow 22LR Suppressor Industry Comparison "PART 2"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KcFPEKWptw

My memory's a bit fuzzy, but I think the video they did with the various silencers on a 15-22 showed the Sparrow as being more quiet on the rifle.

If this continues, darn if I don't think I'm going to have to go back to my old signature....
Before I bother to answer your question, I have one of my own.
Do you come here seeking information or affirmation?

 

[DPris]

I'm not trying to persuade anybody to buy anything.
Watched your video links.

I've stated my reasons for buying & liking the Sparrow, and I'll expand:
All stainless, including tube & internal liners.
No tool required for takedown.
Easy disassembly & reassembly.
Few parts.
One-piece baffle section.
Fairly easy to clean.
Slim diameter.
Short length.
Not unduly heavy.
Affects neither accuracy nor velocity.
Does not change point of impact.
Reasonable price.
Good sound reduction.

Can you find a quieter suppressor?
Sure.
Do I care?
No, happy with the overall package I have.

I will ask you again the question I didn't see you answer:
Why is a first round pop so important to you?

To me, the whole setup's a toy.
If the first round is louder, it's still quieter than an un-suppressed shot.

Why would I make the presence or absence of that pop a criteria in deciding which one to buy?

When I shot my Ruger in that same Silencerco lab shown in their videos, with over a dozen different rounds as comparisons, I noticed no difference in first round vs subsequent rounds, nor have I since.

If it's there, it's not loud enough for that pop to register for my ears, without plugs or a muff on.

It's just not an issue for me, why is it for you in just going out & shooting for fun?
Honestly wondering why.
Denis

 

[bikerdoc]

Gentleman:

Im not the resident mod for this forum but I am the first one up and notice this thread has been reported.
I defer final decision to the resident mod but I am not going to lock it as it it an example of how two fine members can disagree by presenting facts and evidence and act in accordance with High Road values and rule
Kudos to you all.

 

[Aaron Baker]

I will ask you again the question I didn't see you answer:
Why is a first round pop so important to you?

Important to me? Not hardly, for the reasons I've already posted.
I also posted that if it was that important to me (and it may be to new shoppers), here are the reasons (which I won't bother to post again).

I didn't see the previous thread that spawned this one. But it seems like he's already answered your question: it isn't important to him, but it might be to some new shoppers.

Want reasons? Here's a couple off the top of my head:

1. The buyer knows the myths of silencers more than the realities, and wants a Hollywood-quiet silencer. A louder first round doesn't fit with that idea.

2. The buyer isn't viewing the "whole setup as a toy" like you are. That could be for "valid" reasons or "silly" reasons.

2a. The "valid" reason might be that they're using it for hunting. Since we're talking .22, that's probably squirrels. A quiet shot is less likely to scare off the other squirrels. When hunting, your first shot is the one that matters most. If it isn't as quiet as the 10 follow-up shots, then it matters during hunting in a way that doesn't matter at the range.

2b. The silly reason might be that they don't really have any mission critical application for this silencer at all, but they still want the very "best" product that they can find, and they view a product that is equally quiet for all shots as the "best" product. Maybe they think the zombie apocalypse is coming and they want to be able to take silent headshots on the walking dead without attracting the attention of other zombies. (Yeah, that's a silly reason, but it's their money.)

At the end of the day, it's something that manufacturers clearly pay attention to, and that's because some segment of the market cares. It doesn't really matter why, except maybe to you personally.

Aaron

 

[basicblur]

Im not the resident mod for this forum but I am the first one up and notice this thread has been reported.

Well now that would be interesting to see exactly who reported it and why?
I'm just trying to give potential shoppers a "heads up" of what I call the dirty little secret AFA first round pop - they will have to decide if / how important that is to them. I've held my tongue many times at shops when first time silencer buyers are given the "sales pitch" by employees.

I guess I've stepped on someone's toes, but being one to not automatically go along with / willing to question "conventional wisdom" all my life, I learned long ago that comes with the territory.

You won't have to worry about me answering his posts (again) as I've covered all the salient points over in the (now closed) 22 thread where this subject first came up. Apparently a few folks in here appreciated the info, and apparently were unaware of the first round pop - that's the purpose of the presented info.

If any newbies have questions, I'll try to help / enlighten them as best I can.

I defer final decision to the resident mod but I am not going to lock it as it is an example of how two fine members can disagree by presenting facts and evidence...

Well I've tried to present a few video links with the "facts" in the video.
The videos also match my personal experience - as stated in an earlier post, when I throw 'em down and have friends "have at 'em", after shooting both my Sparrow and Element 2, they all opted for the Element 2.

The OP stated his reason for preferring his choice - I also used many of his reasons when looking at / buying my Sparrows, but in my earlier post, I pointed out theory vs. actual experience.

For example (and this has already been covered)...one of the selling points of the Sparrow is it requires no tools for disassembly. That's great, as long as the silencer cooperates - if it doesn't, then what do you do?

With the Sparrow, you have to start improvising - with the Element 2...well, AAC has thoughtfully provided you with a tool which helps get stubborn silencers apart!

There is almost always more than one way to look at a particular "feature"...

 

[kanook]

FRP for me

I have a TBAC CB9 (Thunderbeast CB9 (.30 cal suppressor) and a Liberty Mystic (9mm suppressor)

I can us the TBAC on a 300 blackout with great results, the Liberty Mystic works great also, but it has a noticeable FRP. After a couple of shots it sounds great.

I will be using the suppressor for hunting on a single shot (Handi rifle) so the FRP means A LOT to me, or lack of one.

When I use the Liberty with my .357mag rifle the FRP is not as noticeable for reasons of a full bore.

 

[Theohazard]

Why is a first round pop so important to you?

Regardless of how much logical sense it makes, I can tell you that FRP matters to me. I've put many, many rounds through several different Sparrows and compared them to many other .22 cans, and the Sparrow's FRP annoys me a little.

For me, it's part of what Aaron Baker said: If I was dispatching a raccoon in my backyard, I'd want a .22 can that was quieter for the first shot, and I don't want to have to use nasal spray or some other method to get that quieter first shot. But mainly it just bothers me, even for recreational shooting. Why? I guess I can't describe it exactly, but it's a personal preference of mine. Shouldn't that be a good enough explanation? It's like asking someone why they like the color red, or why they don't like someone's hairstyle.

I sell a lot of silencers, and the Sparrow might be the one I sell the most. When describing the features of the Sparrow, I always mention the fact that it has a noticable FRP on a pistol, because that does matter to some customers. I don't mention it in a derogatory way, I simply present the information. And most customers say they don't care about FRP, so for them the Sparrow is an excellent choice.

You really can't beat a Sparrow when it comes to ease of disassembly and cleaning, durability, and overall performance. I would never buy a Sparrow because I like my FRP to be less noticable, but I'm well aware that that's just me; for people that don't care about it, the Sparrow might be the best .22 can on the market.

 

[Ryanxia]

To have the ability (even if the need doesn't yet exist) to fire one shot as quietly as possible in a potentially life threatening situation. I don't plan on getting into a car accident yet I still care about my coverage on my insurance because one day I might need it.

 

[basicblur]

You really can't beat a Sparrow when it comes to ease of disassembly and cleaning, durability, and overall performance.

As a dealer, I'm going to (re)post this from the closed 22 thread for a little owner feedback (you may want to give your customers something to think about AFA cleaning)? Reposting will also save potential new buyers from having to go hunt for the post if they're interested in any info they may find helpful / give them something new to think about?

Note that after owning / cleaning both, I now think the Element 2 may actually be easier to clean, IF you have access to SS tumbling, but you really don't need it that clean. I probably won't ever get it that clean again - I had to return it to out of the box cleanliness in order to try the silicone dip pre-treatment. For my next cleaning, both the Sparrow and Element 2 guts are probably going into the Gunslick Ultrasonic cleaner only.

From the closed 22 ammo thread:

and I chose it because it IS so easy to clean.

Yes and no - depends on how you clean it.

1. The Sparrow looks as if it will go more rounds before needing cleaning.
2. The Element 2 is probably going to be tougher to take apart, BUT they do include a tool. Some folks view the tool as a negative - that may be so until you REALLY need it. In that case, the Element 2 (with it's tool) may be easier to take apart than the Sparrow.
3. I did my first cleaning / experiment with both ultrasonic (Gunslick ultrasonic cleaner) AND SS tumbling for the Element 2 ONLY (you can't tumble the Sparrow baffle without damaging the finish on the end cap, which remains with / is built onto the monocore baffle).

I initially thought I'd like the Sparrow for the usual reasons - easier to take apart and easier to clean, BUT now that I've experimented, if one has access to SS tumbling I think the Element 2 is easier to clean.

I cleaned both silencers (especially the Element 2) much more than necessary - the baffle stack now looks like new, and I've used the silicone dip method that's floating around the 'Net for both silencers - we'll see how they look / clean up next time, and I probably won't clean them as well next time (they work better if slightly dirty).

I put 1,000 rds. thru each silencer, and mine looked nowhere near as dirty as the pix I see of folks opening silencers with under 1,000 rounds thru them.
I have shot a fair amount of plated rounds, so I don't know how much that plays into it, and I also don't shoot some ammo that seems to have a reputation of being very dirty.
Based on my experience and the fact that I've treated them with the silicone dip (and grease on the threads), I don't plan on cracking them open again until the 2,000 round mark.

1. I use my Sparrows on long guns due to the first round pop on pistols (there is none on the 15-22 / ARX-160).
2. I also use the Sparrows on the long guns as I have to shoot leaded bullets if I want to avoid the supersonic crack.
3. I use the Element 2 on my pistols - it has no first round pop on the pistols, and I can shoot about any easily found plated supersonic 22 thru it and the pistol since the supersonic round loses enough velocity out of the short barrel to remain subsonic.
4. The Element 2 is both smaller and lighter, which suits its use on a pistol even more than the Sparrows.

This info is for those that haven't yet purchased - some folks that already have just hate it when you find anything to nitpick about with their choice.
(I own both and have no emotional investment in either).

I tell the local boyz interested in 22 silencers to use the Element 2 as a baseline. Doesn't mean they have to buy it, but I find it's usually easier when shopping to pick a highly recommended baseline unit, learn it, then when shopping ask yourself / the dealer "why is this better than my baseline unit?"

 

[basicblur]

the Sparrow's FRP annoys me a little.

How would you feel about a first TWO rounds pop?

One I might let slide, but two would be just downright irritating!

I thought there might be something unusual going on with the local fellow that told me his Guardian had a two round pop, but a little Googling shows he is correct - others are reporting the same thing.

 

[DPris]

I'm just among those who couldn't care less about the pop.
Trying to understand it's importance to others & not quite getting it.

I'm not entirely persuaded that it'd be any significant issue in hunting, since it's a such a slight difference, if there is one on your individual gun.

I did wade through the video links, and the Silencerco equipment is sensitive enough to pick it up, but my ears are not, and I'd think the difference is small enough to make no real difference to the ears of anything you'd be hunting.
If they're within practical range, they'll pick up a 114 just as well as they'll pick up a 126.

Just don't see it having any real life negative at all.

I've used my Ruger to kill a backyard gopher.
(All legalities observed where I live & the physical layout is safe here to do so.)
Took three shots, all three echoed off the neighbor's house next door equally. That's the closest thing to "confined airspace" where I've fired the can aside from the lab, the rest has been in an open outdoor setting, and also includes work using the can on another Lite version of the Ruger 22/45, besides the CZ rifle.

Used the regular 22/45 extensively indoors at Silencerco's lab, as mentioned.
There has never been anything even remotely annoying about any pop, if it's there.
Simply makes no difference in shooting performance or impressions on my ears.

I suppose those shopping for a can might find the Pop/No-Pop thing worth knowing, I just think it's an overblown issue & too many attach too much importance to it.

As the one video said- there are trade-offs between brands & cans.
I'm still quite happy with my Sparrow.
If you prefer something else, by all means get something else.

Not worth a brand war, I was merely trying to understand why some attach so much emphasis to a first round pop.
It's not going to blow your eardrums out the top of your head (indoors or out), the actual difference (if there) is not going to make it impossible for you to continue on in your job as a super-spook assassin, and the squirrels will jump & run just as fast if the pop's there or if it's not.

When we did the lab work, we did reduction comps by shooting each load un-suppressed first, using the exact same protocols you saw in the Silencerco videos.
Can off, muffs on.

Then repeated each load with can on, muffs off.

As Mr. Spock once said- A difference that makes no difference, is no difference.
And I picked up no difference.
Others may, but again, I just don't understand the fuss.
Denis

 

[basicblur]

I did wade through the video links, and the Silencerco equipment is sensitive enough to pick it up, but my ears are not

Well that explains it - you obviously have suffered hearing damage somewhere along the line!

In another life I had a long career in industry - wasn't long after I set foot in the place that I started doing research on hearing and protection. I wore some type of hearing protection my entire career, once (early days) even getting chewed out by a boss for doing so (once again going against "conventional wisdom" of the time).
When I retired, they had swung to the other extreme - from denigrating / harassing those that wore hearing protection, to getting completely ridiculous on where it was required.

 

[DPris]

Quite possibly, but still not seeing the importance even if it is there.
Denis

 

[bikerdoc]

Im still watching.

 

[rbernie]

What causes the FRP?

 

[Jesse H]

Thanks for the thread and enlightening info about Sparrow's FRP. Mine will mostly be a toy but do see instances where I may use it in inside a neighborhood to dispatch animals.

 

[kanook]

rbernie What causes the FRP?

The air in the suppressor/silencer is what I have always been told.

 

[taliv]

i absolutely hate FRP when i am shooting subsonic. the reason is because in guns like my 300blk bolt gun below, i may only take one shot, and i want it to not be recognizable as a 'gun shot' to anyone more than say, 25 yards away. In the example below, the first round (which may be the only round) is too loud, the rest of the rounds are not.

when shooting supersonic, who cares?

[resize=200] [/resize]

 

[basicblur]

The air in the suppressor/silencer is what I have always been told.

That's my understanding as well - either the oxygen or the temperature of said oxygen causes it, and since the Sparrow has much more open space inside than the Element 2 does, I guess that contributes.

True or not, I've heard it floated that the stacked baffle design as an Element 2 (there are plenty of others with a similar design) is less prone to FRP than the monocore design of a Sparrow and clones.

When you fire your first shot, either the majority of the oxygen is displaced with whatever witches brew of gases has been expelled into the silencer, and / or the temperature of the air / chemicals left floating in the silencer has been raised to a higher temperature, which is not as conducive to first round pop as the ambient air temperature oxygen which was in the silencer on the first shot.

Some folks run 'em wet to get around it - never tried it, but I've heard you can take an air duster can (like you use to blow dust off your computer / electronics) and shoot it down the silencer in order to displace the oxygen before the first shot.
Just don't shoot your hand off trying this!

'Course, I's jest an ole country boy - I ain't no highfalutin silencer expert.
I jest plays one on the 'Net...

 

[DPris]

If it makes any difference, all .22LR rimfire will be subsonic in a 5-inch or less pistol barrel, even the hi-vel & hyper-vel.

If the pop has significance in centerfires, then it has significance in centerfires, but we're not talking about centerfires here.
Denis

 

[Bama Drifter]

total newb here:

Hey Denis and Basicblur,
you guys are two extremely polite oracles of gun wisdom whom I would be happy to share any campfire with. Anyway, I've heard "dipping" the can will reduce noise better. Does dipping it in oil or water, etc. get rid of FRP by "shooting wet"???

Sorry to be wading into such a fine thread. Y'all are an excellent source of gun knowledge!

 

[basicblur]

I've heard "dipping" the can will reduce noise better. Does dipping it in oil or water, etc. get rid of FRP by "shooting wet"???

Are you talking 22 or centerfire cans?

Folks shoot 'em wet to help quiet them, but I can't see messing with it for a 22 can - just buy one without a FRP, and use the appropriate 22 ammo for your application (supersonic or subsonic to be really quiet).

I have much less experience with centerfire cans (I do own one) and shoot only .223 thru it, so the major noise by far is the supersonic crack of the round. Not a lot of use in trying to get the can any quieter unless I can shoot some kind of subsonic centerfire rounds.

Now if they ever come out with a 300 Blackout Tavor...