First time form 1

[pbtohiglo]

Hello all! Forgive the newbie question, but I'm hoping it's a simple one

I setup my nfa trust this week, I'm preparing to submit my very first form 1 for an SBR. My question is, I have an existing AR rifle and a stripped receiver. Is there any reason I cannot or should not put my existing lower on the form 1, or should I just leave that one alone and register my stripped lower?

I've done a lot of reading on the subject but didn't find a definitive answer on the subject, so I figured I'd just come out and ask.

thanks guys!

 

[vtsteve]

You can do either one, but only 1 firearm per form 1.

I'm not sure if it's required, but it's recommended to put the title 1 firearm into the trust before submitting the form 1. If your state requires background checks for private sales you may need to have an FFL transfer it from you to the trust.

 

[yugorpk]

The atf doesn't care if you put the gun onto the trust before submitting. I don't see any reason to do do it.

The only time you really want to use a different receiver is when you have something like a preban receiver where the value is high and you don't want to engrave it. Keep in mind you can remove an SBR from the registry and reconfigure it as a standard rifle at any time for resale as a title 1 firearm.

 

[vtsteve]

I think the reasoning behind putting it into the trust first is to prove the trust owns it before conversion.

If you, as an individual owns said firearm, you are submitting the form 1 to "manufacture" a title II weapon. Since it is not an application for transfer like a form 4, one might argue that the trust manufactured it but the individual owns it illegally. Assigning it to the trust after the fact without an approved form 4 could be considered an illegal transfer.

I understand it's not required for approval from the ATF, but it is recommended by most lawyers, NFA dealers, etc. to assign the title 1 firearm to the trust first. It usually doesn't cost anything and it covers your ass in a legal grey area so why not do it first? You'll need to have it assigned to the trust once it's an NFA weapon anyway, right?

 

[yugorpk]

Its not an issue for the ATF and never has been. They ( The ATF ) only requires that something be in the trust. Attorneys may have their own ideas of what they think a trust should look like and dealers really have zero place telling anyone what a NFA trust should look like. Ive heard all kinds of goofy stuff concerning what attorneys consider a valid trust to the NFA to consist of and even goofier ideas made up by internet lawyers. My favorite is people thinking that you need to have a separate bank account to draw "trust funds" out of to show the ATF that the trust is its own legal entity . The ATF so doesnt care. Its a revocable living trust. The trustee can move stuff , funds, trustees etc in and out at will. The ATf only needs to see SOMETHING in the trust and a schedule of property included to prove its a valid trust. You don't have to add the item you are including until after the trust is approved. You certainly do not need to add any title 1 firearms even if they are the ones that are going to added as NFA items later. The ATF doesnt give a flip. You could write your trust on the back of a napkin and as long as it satisfies your states bare minimum requirements of what a trust is they will approve it.

Ive filed 18 trust form 1's and form 4's using a bootleg copy of Quicken willmaker to write my own trusts. People make this stuff way too complicated.

 

[pbtohiglo]

ok, great info! thank you!

now on the issue of engraving, I need to permanently mark my receiver with my trust name? is that correct as well?

 

[yugorpk]

Yes. When you make your trust make the name of the trust as brief as possible. Mine is..

"XYZ Trust" . Not really XYZ but my initials. Keeps it short . First trust I did way back when I did the usual "My full name revocable living trust" newbie mistake and really paid for it once I did my first form 1 silencer. Took up the whole tube.

So, you'll need to engrave "XYZ Trust. Your town, State Initials"

I use Veritas machine. Great work barely noticeable under the mag well for $50 blackened.

Also, The ATF is not going to go back through old trusts to check for minutiae of grammar , punctuation, and vagaries of law. Once its approved its approved and your trust goes into the Indiana Jones warehouse. If they don't approve something they will correct it with you before the approval or they will require you to resubmit. Neither is any big deal.

 

[vtsteve]

What the ATF "cares" about and what is legal are two separate things.

If they approve a form and it's later determined that your trust does not meet the legal requirements in your state (for example some states require the trust to be registered before it is valid), then your "trust" does not exist, and you're in possession of an illegal item.

The trustee can move stuff , funds, trustees etc in and out at will

Not NFA items, and not if your state requires a NICS for private sales or registration of title 1 firearms.

You don't have to add the item you are including until after the trust is approved

The ATF is not approving your trust, they're approving your application to manufacture or transfer ownership of an item.

Ive filed 18 trust form 1's and form 4's using a bootleg copy of Quicken willmaker to write my own trusts.

Again, just because the ATF took a quick glance at your trust and gave you a stamp, doesn't mean your trust is necessarily valid. Nor does it provide you with any protection from further scrutiny in the future.

The ATF has a history of re-examining and re-interpreting laws and cases. They have asked manufacturers that sold later reclassified items for lists of their customers and tracked them all down. They've been known to entrap citizens, shoot dogs, and firebomb women and children. They do not have a sense of humor. If you want to have a cavalier attitude about compliance, I wish you the best of luck.

Your SBR needs to be assigned to the trust eventually ANYWAY, so why not assign it before submitting the form?

 

[vtsteve]

now on the issue of engraving, I need to permanently mark my receiver with my trust name? is that correct as well?

The registered caliber also needs to be permanently marked, but not necessarily on the lower. If your lower is marked 5.56, or MULTI for example, but you register in 9MM, then you'll need to get 9MM engraved either on a visible part of the upper or lower receiver, or on the barrel in a visible spot.

 

[yugorpk]

What the ATF "cares" about and what is legal are two separate things.

If they approve a form and it's later determined that your trust does not meet the legal requirements in your state (for example some states require the trust to be registered before it is valid), then your "trust" does not exist, and you're in possession of an illegal item.

Doesnt happen . Its a non issue. Once its approved its approved and off into the records room or scanned and shredded. If there are issues with the trusts validity they will not approve the transfer. They ABSOLUTELY do check trusts to see if they are valid before the form 1 is approved.



Not NFA items, and not if your state requires a NICS for private sales or registration of title 1 firearms.

You certainly can buy and sell NFA items as a trustee . You, as trustee, can sell directly to another trust or individual on a form 4 in state or through a dealer out of state. The state NICS transfer bit is your states problem, not the ATF's



The ATF is not approving your trust, they're approving your application to manufacture or transfer ownership of an item.

No one said they were approving your trust but yet they still do in a way. They do a cursory check to ensure the trust meets minimum state requirements ( Oh, yes they certainly do ) and then the approve the form 1 or 4 if all your other paperwork is in order. If the trust does not meet the minimum state specifications they are looking for in their cheat sheets they will not approve the transfer to your trust.



Again, just because the ATF took a quick glance at your trust and gave you a stamp, doesn't mean your trust is necessarily valid. Nor does it provide you with any protection from further scrutiny in the future.

There is no further scrutiny unless you totally hose things up the next time around.

The ATF has a history of re-examining and re-interpreting laws and cases. They have asked manufacturers that sold later reclassified items for lists of their customers and tracked them all down. They've been known to entrap citizens, shoot dogs, and firebomb women and children. They do not have a sense of humor. If you want to have a cavalier attitude about compliance, I wish you the best of luck.

If you do everything you are supposed to you will not have a problem. I have worked with the ATF both as a firearms manufacturer and dealer and even on the alcohol side as a brewer. They have a bad reputation from the Janet Reno days they do have to live down but in practice they are there to help you fill your forms out correctly and WILL help you to correct mistakes. There are way too many scare tactics from the "guntrustlawyers" attempting to scare people into using their services and from other groups including the internet tinfoil hat crowd. Its a simple and easy process you can do yourself and be perfectly in compliance with everything the ATF wants done.

Your SBR needs to be assigned to the trust eventually ANYWAY, so why not assign it before submitting the form?

Because its not over until its over. If you are not approved why add it to the trust? You can pull the application at any time before and in some cases after its approved.

Then again, what do I know. Ive only bought 18 stamps of my own on trusts Ive drafted and stood over the shoulders of a dozen or so other guys who were doing the same thing over the last 15 years

 

[vtsteve]

There's really no point in us having this conversation if you're going to go back and edit your posts to remove everything I tell you is incorrect/claim you never said it. You win, you're a genius. Have fun with your toys.

 

[yugorpk]

There's really no point in us having this conversation if you're going to go back and edit your posts to remove everything I tell you is incorrect/claim you never said it. You win, you're a genius. Have fun with your toys.

I am responding to the points you raised. Some were somewhat valid but most were not. My original comments are still in the post above.

 

[Aaron Baker]

(for example some states require the trust to be registered before it is valid)

Just for clarity's sake, no, they don't. There are a small minority of states that "require" trust registration. Not registering the trust does not invalidate it, and in none of those states is there any penalty for failing to register your trust. It's still a valid trust either way. They're laws with no teeth.

Yugorpk is correct that you can make a perfectly valid trust without getting a lawyer involved. He's also correct that the ATF checks to make sure that your trust meets certain minimum requirements.

However, things do also slip through the cracks at the ATF. "Invalid" trusts have been approved in the past, although it's probably more rare now that trusts are more common. There are also plenty of ways that you can do things with your trust that aren't legal once your trust has been approved. It's also exceedingly unlikely that you'll ever be "caught" by the ATF even if this situation does occur. They don't have the manpower to police these things, unless you're on their radar for some pretty big criminal undertaking.

I, being a lawyer who writes NFA trusts, obviously advise paying a lawyer to draft a trust for you. But I'm also relatively inexpensive, and personally, not a person who likes overpaying for things, so I also understand guys who look at a potential $600 bill from a lawyer and decide to do it themselves. I don't deride those people for that choice.

The registered caliber also needs to be permanently marked, but not necessarily on the lower. If your lower is marked 5.56, or MULTI for example, but you register in 9MM, then you'll need to get 9MM engraved either on a visible part of the upper or lower receiver, or on the barrel in a visible spot.

This is the first time I've ever heard this. You can change the caliber of a firearm any time that you want, and you are not REQUIRED to notify the ATF. They ask nicely that you do if you make a change that they consider "permanent," but again, that's a request, not a legal mandate. So as long as SOME caliber is marked on the firearm, what's your source for the requirement that it be changed every time the caliber changes? Or that it must match the "registered" caliber?

I think the "should you add your SBR before or after you get a stamp" question is pretty much open to personal preference. Adding it is REALLY simple. So waiting until you get the stamp in the mail is fine. Just add it before you build it, at least. On the other hand, adding it is REALLY simple. So why not just add it now? In the end, do whatever you want. Just make sure it's listed in the trust before you configure it as an SBR. And if your trust is empty when you go to submit your first Form 1, then list it because it's easier to list it than list a dollar and then add it later. You're gonna add it anyway. Do it now.

As for everything else you guys are arguing about, it's all a bit silly. The ATF is both capable of being evil jackbooted thugs given the right situation, and mostly just (usually helpful) bureaucrats the rest of the time.

You can add or remove things from your trust as much as you want, with the obvious caveat that you must have transfers approved before removing NFA firearms.

I know that NFA stuff is pretty confusing sometimes, and that some people have strong opinions, but let's try to keep it High Road, give the best advice we can, and remain pleasant.

Aaron

 

[vtsteve]

Per the ATF

The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The
marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to
section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements.

7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:

118 27 CFR 479.91
119 27 CFR 479.84
120 27 CFR 479.102
121 ATF Ruling 2002-6

(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

7.4.4 Obtaining variances to the marking requirements. Requests for variances from the marking
requirements of 27 CFR 478.92 and 27 CFR 479.102 should be submitted by letter to ATF’s Firearms
Technology Branch (FTB). The letter can be sent via mail to Chief, Firearms Technology Branch, 244
Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405. The letter can also be sent to the marking variance e-mail
address at: [email protected]. The marking variance request may be submitted by any of the
parties involved in the variance. However, if the primary manufacturer is in possession of all the
information including the names of the identity of the secondary manufacturers and the manufacturing
processes they may be performing on the firearm, it is preferred that the primary manufacturer submit
the request to FTB.

The marking variance letter of request should clearly state the following information:
• manufacturer, importer, or maker of the firearm(s),
• recipient of the firearm(s),
• identify the name, city and State that will be displayed on the firearm(s),
• model designation, if designated,
• identify the type/style of firearm (pistol, machinegun, short-barreled rifle, etc.),
• caliber or gauge if assigned, and
• serial number scheme.


My understanding is that the caliber on your form 1 (they won't approve "multi"), must be marked in a conspicuous location. You are allowed to change caliber after the fact, but if you sell your original barrel and no longer possess one in the registered length and/or caliber, you have made a permanent change as you can no longer return the firearm to registered configuration.

 

[vtsteve]

To add to this, I'm not claiming that you need to change your markings when you change calibers, or that you need to notify the ATF of permanent changes. I'm just stating that to comply with the letter of law, the registered caliber should be marked on the firearm.

 

[Aaron Baker]

My understanding is that the caliber on your form 1 (they won't approve "multi"), must be marked in a conspicuous location. You are allowed to change caliber after the fact, but if you sell your original barrel and no longer possess one in the registered length and/or caliber, you have made a permanent change as you can no longer return the firearm to registered configuration.

Well, they won't approve "multi" anymore. Sort of makes you wonder what that means for folks who had their forms approved back when they would.

As for your comments about a "permanent" change, that's the ATF's view, yes. They feel that if you get rid of your original barrel, then it's a "permanent" change. However, there's no legal requirement that you do anything just because you've made a "permanent" change. The law requires you to pay a tax and register a short-barreled rifle. Once that's done, there's no law that requires you to keep it a particular length or caliber. It's important to make a distinction between what the ATF would like you to do as a favor to them so that they can keep the registry accurate, and what is actually legally required of you.

To be clear, I do recommend notifying the ATF of "permanent" changes, but it isn't required.

As for the caliber issue, I'm not completely convinced. There's an important distinction to be made between "makers" and "manufacturers." If I make an NFA firearm out of an existing manufactured Title I firearm, then I am forbidden to create a new serial number. I have to use the existing markings. I do have to add my name (or trust's name), city and state as the maker. If my making changes the caliber from what was originally marked, must I really mark it with the new caliber? It's an interesting question.

Food for thought: if I put a barrel on an AR15, and that barrel is marked with the caliber, as they often are, then it seems that I've complied with the requirements. That's because the caliber marking is allowed to appear on the barrel, and there's no requirement that I obliterate the old caliber marking, so if a different caliber appears on the lower, it doesn't matter.

Additional food for thought: if I register a new SBR AR15 on a Form 1 and I list .223 as the caliber, and my barrel is marked .223, and then I later switch barrels to a different caliber, I'm not required to notify the ATF of that change, so does it now matter if the markings aren't on the new barrel or don't match the Form 1?

You've raised an interesting question, but frankly, I think it's, at best, not a legal requirement, and at worst, a quagmire of unenforceability.

Aaron

 

[vtsteve]

Per the above: The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer

If you don't believe you need to mark caliber as the maker, then why would you need to mark the maker's name, city, and state? I've also heard it argued that you don't need to mark those either when converting from an existing firearm as the "manufacturer" has already marked that information.

I do agree that's like many NFA regulations, it's largely unenforceable, especially given the lack of notification requirements for permanent changes.

 

[Elkins45]

Just a minor point: only the serial number (which already exists) needs to be engraved on the lower. My AR-based SBR and my 10/22 SBR both have my trust, city and state information engraved on the barrel. In the case of the AR I didn't want to permanently deface my nice Colt lower.

 

[Aaron Baker]

If you don't believe you need to mark caliber as the maker, then why would you need to mark the maker's name, city, and state? I've also heard it argued that you don't need to mark those either when converting from an existing firearm as the "manufacturer" has already marked that information.

You know, honestly, this is simply not an issue that I ever considered before now. I certainly have heard the "argument" that you don't need to mark an existing firearm with your name, city and state. That's obviously wrong, and I definitely don't want to get lumped in with the people making that argument.

I just re-read 27 CFR 479.102. It does say that "you, as a ... maker of a firearm" must engrave with caliber or gauge. That's pretty clear.

I think it's just that I've never considered before that it might be a problem for makers of NFA firearms because it's often already done.

In any case where you use an existing receiver to make a firearm and it is already marked with a caliber, and that's the caliber that you're "making" the NFA firearm in, then you don't have to worry about additional marking.

Likewise, even if the existing receiver is marked in a different caliber, or as "multi," then as long as the barrel you're installing is stamped with the caliber, then you're in compliance with the law.

So the only real issue is if neither the existing receiver or the barrel you're using have the correct caliber for the firearm you're "making" on the Form 1. In that case, then you should have the new caliber marked either on the receiver or the barrel.

You learn something new every day. Thanks for bringing this topic up, vtsteve.

Aaron