Vernal45
member
This COP, in this incident, should be behind bars for assault.
FL Deputy Shows Up At Wrong Address, Uses Taser Gun On Marine
- Thread starter Vernal45
- Start date
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This COP, in this incident, should be behind bars for assault.
beerslurpy
member
Its not over yet. The sheriff's department knows that a lawsuit is going to be forthcoming any day now so it isnt going to admit that the deputy did something seriously wrong.
I wonder if you could sue to compel that they prosecute him.
I wonder if you could sue to compel that they prosecute him.
I'm of two minds on this.
First, the Leon County Sheriff's department did the right thing and faced up to John Q Public. I admit it when I screw up, no biggie, but I never ever do the same mistake again.
Second, why wasn't a rookie, with a veteran Sherrf's deputy? People, are not exactly lineing up for these jobs any more, and good ones are very hard to find in the first place.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if we had a nation wide week of the "Blue flu" go around.
First, the Leon County Sheriff's department did the right thing and faced up to John Q Public. I admit it when I screw up, no biggie, but I never ever do the same mistake again.
Second, why wasn't a rookie, with a veteran Sherrf's deputy? People, are not exactly lineing up for these jobs any more, and good ones are very hard to find in the first place.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if we had a nation wide week of the "Blue flu" go around.
TallPine
Member
Sheriff Campbell must be a cop-hater too, huh ...?
All's well that ends well, I guess
I'm encouraged to see that the Sheriff did the right thing. If I was Jackson, I probably would just let the matter drop.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
What was stated in one of the articles as the department's policy on the use of a taser I found to be deeply disturbing. The department or the county commission needs to take a long, very hard look at the individual or group of inidividuals who developed that policy. They need to ask themselves this question: Do we really want people with this demonstrable lack of sound judgement to be developing county policy on where to stack brooms when not in use...much less the policy on use of force?
Another thing I find to be disturbing is the comment made, I believe, by one of our members:"He had to be arrested once force was used." Here in Waynesboro, in similar situations a multitude of charges were once used after the cops beat hell out of someone: public drunkeness(I've seen that one used on a man who was on his own residential property during the entire incident), resisting arrest when there was no probable cause for arrest in the first place, and the obstruction of justice charge. Now maybe there is some legal justification or rationalization for arrest after the use of force whether the force was justifiable or unjustifiable. I don't know as I am not a police officer nor a lawyer. But, to a non-LEO citizen, this type of reasoning appears to be nothing but CYA.
Officers, I truly think that a change in outlook needs to be fostered at the policy and procedure development level in our law enforcement agencies across the nation whether these agencies be local, state, or federal. The immediate defense one hears whenever the actions of LEO's are criticized is that the action was legal. Or was ruled constitutional. Or was the standard operating procedure and policy of the agency.
The change I propose is this: Is there anyone anywhere in these agencies asking,"Is this policy or procedure wise? Will it help us do our jobs in the long term or hurt us in that goal? Will it foster good relations with the community? Will it tarnish our image or enhance it?"
I, for one, am perturbed at the growing distrust of law enforcement by common, everyday, law-abiding citizens.
That distrust is there. It is there among at least some of the stalwart pillars of communities everywhere I've been. And it's growing. Y'all have got a public relations problem and it had better be addressed. Sooner will be better than later. Good luck.
Vernal45
member
The Distrust is there, and it is growing. IMHO, the problem is with Law Enforcement. Law Enforcement has slowly, but surely, militarized itself. Rights have been ignored under the guise of OFFICER SAFETY (that makes me cringe more than "its for the children"). I know the majority of LEO's are damn good guys. That being said, the bad ones need to be jailed, policies need to be changed. For one police officer, being able to assault someone, being clearly in the wrong, messing up this Marines record for life (yes, some will scream expungement, but a record is always there), and all the Deputy hs to do it resign. Sorry, that does not cut it. LEO's are NOT the final say in anything, they do not need the almost unlimited POWERS they already have. People, citizens that the LEO's are sworn to protect are scared of them. Why? Well maybe it bacause that once an officer initiates contact with you, you have no avenue of rebuttal. Maybe its because an officer can do a search of your car, or your living room for OFFICER SAFETY. Maybe its because when an officer screws the pooch, all other officers circle the wagons. Or is it one set of laws for LEO's, and another for citizens?
This deputy detained and tazed an innocent man. When you restrict my movement, and you are in the wrong, when you assault me, and you are in the wrong, I DEMAND that charges be filed, and your sorry a$$ is locked up. That is what would happen to me, if I detained and assualted a person. Someday, a cop, maybe one of you LEO's on THR, are gonna be in the wrong, you will feel disrespected becasue someone told you to pound sand, or did not comply to your Alexander Haig syndrome attitude, and that someone is going to Beat you up one side and down the other, and if you were in the wrong, He will walk, cause it is self defense.
Missourigunner
Member
FL Deputy shows up at wrong address, uses Taser
Without knowing all the facts, I will not play "Armchair Commando" on this, but, Where was the "Use of Force Continuum in this Incident?" I worked for the Missouri Department of Corrections for a number of years, Taught Use of Force issue. "Use only that amount of Force necessary to control the situation." In my mind, this wasn't done i n this incident. What was the threat? Did the Marine act aggressively toward the Deputy? according to the Incident report the Marine didn't. Outlaw Tasers is my suggestion.
Without knowing all the facts, I will not play "Armchair Commando" on this, but, Where was the "Use of Force Continuum in this Incident?" I worked for the Missouri Department of Corrections for a number of years, Taught Use of Force issue. "Use only that amount of Force necessary to control the situation." In my mind, this wasn't done i n this incident. What was the threat? Did the Marine act aggressively toward the Deputy? according to the Incident report the Marine didn't. Outlaw Tasers is my suggestion.
Richard.Howe
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 887
Hmm -- anyone want to hazard a guess on what happens next if the Marine has his 1911 in an IWB...then he turns around? Is this scenario a reason not to carry while at home?
DeputyVaughn
Member
Obviously the facts of the case do contain more than the printed stories we've read to date. I'll admit that I was wrong and maybe even guilty of "circling the wagons" to a degree. All things will come out in the wash. However according to the taser policy as written in the article the deputy was within policy. Maybe the article was wrong. As stated earlier the policy may be wrong. Don't know.
Anyway, I'm sorry if my comments got anyones blood up. These forums are for discussion of the issues.....right?
Vernal45, you really should try some of that mellowing that you suggested for me. Your comments are really on the borderline. I don't really understand your hatetred for law officers. We are all human and occationally mistakes will be made. The deputy here is paying for his with his career and reputation. In all honesty I have to wonder if he is not simply a sacraficial lamb to satisfy the community. That part we will never know. I'm sure there is some lawyer out there who will get the marine a big juicy settlement well beyond the scope of what happened.
Scott
Anyway, I'm sorry if my comments got anyones blood up. These forums are for discussion of the issues.....right?
Vernal45, you really should try some of that mellowing that you suggested for me. Your comments are really on the borderline. I don't really understand your hatetred for law officers. We are all human and occationally mistakes will be made. The deputy here is paying for his with his career and reputation. In all honesty I have to wonder if he is not simply a sacraficial lamb to satisfy the community. That part we will never know. I'm sure there is some lawyer out there who will get the marine a big juicy settlement well beyond the scope of what happened.
Scott
Vernal45
member
Deputy Vaughn,
I do not hate LEO's. I hate Abuse of power. I do not need to mellow. One of the reasons LEO's get away with these things is that people are to mellow about it. "OBEY THE LEO, or thou shall surely get hammered". That has been drilled into society so hard, that it is common place. It should not be, people should be up in arms about losing their most basic rights in respect to LEO encounters. Yes, people make mistakes. My point in this matter is; If in this instance, i mad the same mistake the Deputy made, I would be sitting in JAIL right now. Why is the Deputy walking around, free?
Deputy Vaughn, If I have said things to anger you, I apologize. That was not my intent. My intent was to get you to see my opinion, my view on this incident. I am an ex LEO, 10 years as a partol officer. I can see both sides of the issue. Police Officers have way to much power. More Power than citizens. That my friends, is not how it is supposed to be, unless you want warrant disks back in fashion.
DeputyVaughn
Member
Vernal45,
I haven't been angered at all. The reason I entered the discussion here at all was because it seemed that the majority of opinion made the deputy in the story out to be a monster JBT. I've never thought that would be the case and still don't. If you were a police officer you should understand how fast things happen and how fast a decision must be made. Upon rereading the article I saw the deputy had only been on the road since October. He had previously road reserves but was only a deputy for 5 months. I'm very surprised that he was patroling alone and given a "hot call" so early in his career. This is no excuse, but his training would have to come into question. I still think that right or wrong he acted within the policy he was given according to the article. How things were allowed to escalte to that point is still not clear. Reasonable suspicion was all he needed to detain and question the marine and it appeared he had that. The marines lack of cooperation may have been attitude or maybe the deputy approached with an attitude. Also unclear from the articles. I'm guilty of assuming the deputy approached the situation in a professional manner and that assuming he was provoked into further action. I may have been wrong on that account. It's still unclear from the story as given.
As for me, I hope my post on this thread have come across professional even if everyone thought I was wrong. I don't enter these discussions to be a bully or to force my opinion on anyone. I enjoy heated discussion as long as it doesn't get personal and everyone remembers that opinions are like arm pits...we've all got them and some stink.
All this to say: NO offense taken and none given..... on purpose.
Scott A. Vaughn
I haven't been angered at all. The reason I entered the discussion here at all was because it seemed that the majority of opinion made the deputy in the story out to be a monster JBT. I've never thought that would be the case and still don't. If you were a police officer you should understand how fast things happen and how fast a decision must be made. Upon rereading the article I saw the deputy had only been on the road since October. He had previously road reserves but was only a deputy for 5 months. I'm very surprised that he was patroling alone and given a "hot call" so early in his career. This is no excuse, but his training would have to come into question. I still think that right or wrong he acted within the policy he was given according to the article. How things were allowed to escalte to that point is still not clear. Reasonable suspicion was all he needed to detain and question the marine and it appeared he had that. The marines lack of cooperation may have been attitude or maybe the deputy approached with an attitude. Also unclear from the articles. I'm guilty of assuming the deputy approached the situation in a professional manner and that assuming he was provoked into further action. I may have been wrong on that account. It's still unclear from the story as given.
As for me, I hope my post on this thread have come across professional even if everyone thought I was wrong. I don't enter these discussions to be a bully or to force my opinion on anyone. I enjoy heated discussion as long as it doesn't get personal and everyone remembers that opinions are like arm pits...we've all got them and some stink.
All this to say: NO offense taken and none given..... on purpose.
Scott A. Vaughn
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Scott,
I agree with you about this relatively inexperienced deputy being given a hot call alone after only five months on the road.
I feel that if...repeat...if...the facts are as reported that the deputy is really the scapegoat for the failings of his superiors in the department. I also agree that he followed department policy as reported.
I've got mixed feeling about his being forced to resign or be terminated. The primary responsibility here, in my view, is with the department personnel responsible for having him alone on the road with so little training and the department personnel responsible for a taser policy that I find, frankly, to be asinine. It's within department policy to tase someone who is unaggressive but does not follow an officer's every command? Wonder what the policy was before the tasers were issued? After all, following the logic of this department as displayed in the reports (if accurate), an unobedient person might injure an officer if he got close enough to use OC spray or his ASP?
I've got no complaints against the vast majority of police on patrol that I've encountered. But I have serious misgivings about their superiors who are developing departmental training programs, policies, and procedures. And based on what I've seen in person and what has been reported in the past few years, I've got serious doubts about the folks in these positions just about everywhere. I don't really think it is a problem with the young cops as is often alleged. I think the problem is with the management.
I agree with you about this relatively inexperienced deputy being given a hot call alone after only five months on the road.
I feel that if...repeat...if...the facts are as reported that the deputy is really the scapegoat for the failings of his superiors in the department. I also agree that he followed department policy as reported.
I've got mixed feeling about his being forced to resign or be terminated. The primary responsibility here, in my view, is with the department personnel responsible for having him alone on the road with so little training and the department personnel responsible for a taser policy that I find, frankly, to be asinine. It's within department policy to tase someone who is unaggressive but does not follow an officer's every command? Wonder what the policy was before the tasers were issued? After all, following the logic of this department as displayed in the reports (if accurate), an unobedient person might injure an officer if he got close enough to use OC spray or his ASP?
I've got no complaints against the vast majority of police on patrol that I've encountered. But I have serious misgivings about their superiors who are developing departmental training programs, policies, and procedures. And based on what I've seen in person and what has been reported in the past few years, I've got serious doubts about the folks in these positions just about everywhere. I don't really think it is a problem with the young cops as is often alleged. I think the problem is with the management.
mountainclmbr
Member
Parallax wins.
Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Mao, Parallax. The STATE wins eh? Who is GOD anyway?
Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Mao, Parallax. The STATE wins eh? Who is GOD anyway?
Aguila Blanca
Member
Correction: It was the Marine's apartment. The deputy was in the Marine's world, not the other way around.
Aguila Blanca
Member
This might be an appropriate time to insert a little tidbit that was recently sent to me by a friend from a long distance away:
runswithscissors
Member
Lets see:
The cop is a cop
He has a badge
He has a gun(prob more than one)
He has many, many friends with the same
Do as he/she says. Don't hesitate and be respectful. You are likely to come out of any situation with a LEO better this way. Whether he/she is right or wrong, DOES NOT MATTER AT THE TIME, so don't make the situation worse by resisting or not obeying his/her ORDERS.
After the incident is over, you should receive a heartfelt apology if the officer is in the wrong. If not...tough. If he has violated your civil rights, you can perhaps seek a civil lawsuit as reperations.
The cop is a cop
He has a badge
He has a gun(prob more than one)
He has many, many friends with the same
Do as he/she says. Don't hesitate and be respectful. You are likely to come out of any situation with a LEO better this way. Whether he/she is right or wrong, DOES NOT MATTER AT THE TIME, so don't make the situation worse by resisting or not obeying his/her ORDERS.
After the incident is over, you should receive a heartfelt apology if the officer is in the wrong. If not...tough. If he has violated your civil rights, you can perhaps seek a civil lawsuit as reperations.
goalie
Member
I cannot even articulate just how much I disagree with the quoted post. I also cannot even come close to articulating just how glad I am that the 30% or so of the population that stood up the the British Empire didn't agree with that post either.
"Perhaps" I don't feel like filing a lawsuit after being run roughshod like a serf.
beerslurpy
member
Hawkmoon, your monkey story is brilliant. Thanks.
It also reminds me of how cases are decided in american courts. I guess I'm not a fan of stare decisis.
It also reminds me of how cases are decided in american courts. I guess I'm not a fan of stare decisis.
Marine survives war only to be Zapped by an overly power happy LEO while he's on leave waiting to go back to war again?!!?!??
How can anyone defend the Deputy in this case?!?
They need to cahnge the immunities these folks have.
What if the Marine and two of his buddies showed up to the Deputies house in uniform??
Marine-Sir we have information that a deserter lives at this residence..
Deputy- I live here and I've never been in the Service
Marine-Well we're gonna have to detain you until we get this all straightened out. Turn around sir.
Deputy-But you're at the wrong house.. I'm not in the Military.
Marine-Turn around now sir..
Deputy-But I'm not.....
Crack!!! Sound as M-16 butt is brought down on Deputies head.
Deputy-uh....ow...uh
Marine-Put him in the Truck...
Guess he shoulda listened to the nice man in the uniform...Right?
How can anyone defend the Deputy in this case?!?
They need to cahnge the immunities these folks have.
What if the Marine and two of his buddies showed up to the Deputies house in uniform??
Marine-Sir we have information that a deserter lives at this residence..
Deputy- I live here and I've never been in the Service
Marine-Well we're gonna have to detain you until we get this all straightened out. Turn around sir.
Deputy-But you're at the wrong house.. I'm not in the Military.
Marine-Turn around now sir..
Deputy-But I'm not.....
Crack!!! Sound as M-16 butt is brought down on Deputies head.
Deputy-uh....ow...uh
Marine-Put him in the Truck...
Guess he shoulda listened to the nice man in the uniform...Right?
Sindawe
Member
Aufmerksamkeit! Befolgen Sie alle Aufträge ständig! Störung einzuwilligen wird bestraft!
Yea, right. Frell that, I got your compliance right here.DRZinn
Member
Entirely, completely, totally, absolutely, 100% wrong.
I almost feel pity for the tasering cop and those that insist its absolute fact that they can go to any residence and do whatever is "deemed" appropriate without regards to ethics and civil law..its a good way to lose respect and a job.
It might be a good idea to start listening to what people are telling you and use your radio and double check the information before going off the deep end...this would be a clue.
It might be a good idea to start listening to what people are telling you and use your radio and double check the information before going off the deep end...this would be a clue.
I think one problem is that LEO's seem to automatically circle the wagons no matter what. They get the attitude that "He may be 100% in the wrong and was totally out of line, but he's in blue and that's a tough uniform to wear."
If they had the common sense enough to identify bad cops and get rid of them, the public might trust them more.
There is a saying in the Air Force, (probably in the other services as well) that goes "It's not for everyone"
If they had the common sense enough to identify bad cops and get rid of them, the public might trust them more.
There is a saying in the Air Force, (probably in the other services as well) that goes "It's not for everyone"
DeputyVaughn
Member
My Last post on this thread:
The difference in the address (from article) was apartment A and B. We're not talking about down the street here. We're talking 30 or 40 feet left right or up and down. Also I believe the marine was outside when the deputy arrived. The article said his wife and child came outside to see him tasered. It also said the deputy explained why he was there and why he was asking for compliance. He also gave a warning as to what he would do. The department policy as given in the longer article basicly was to use the taser before resorting to hands on control. The PC for using the taser in this case was that the subject was refusing to comply with being detained until things were sorted out. He was at what might be a crime scene, 911 calls usually have some basis in fact even when it turns out to not be a crime. A basic "Terry stop", I.D. and question, was in order and I believe the deputy had the necessary reasonable suspicion to justify it. Remember reasonable suspicion is based on what the deputy knew at the time. The marine threw his ID at the deputy's feet which depending on his attitude at the time could have been interprited as threatening to the officer (prelude to attack). The deputy's backup didn't arrive until after the taser was used. In my county, there may be ten or twenty minutes lag time on the second deputy arriving.
It's very easy for the marine to say to the reporter, "I wasn't doing nuthin and the dude just shot me with the taser. That guy's out of control". Reporter will print it. The department is going to say, "the matter is under investigation and we will reserve comment until the investigation is complete". I doubt anyone witnessed the actual attempt to detain and interview the marine. His wife only came out as he was being tased. Does anyone know what his disposition was when the deputy asked him to stay put and wait for him to figure out what was up. What if he said "I ain't doin nuthin pig". Or "kiss my ....". I'm not saying that's what happened, just what if.
I've already admitted that I may indeed be guilty of circling the wagons at the onset of this thread. I felt like based on what was originally offered in print the deputy was getting a raw deal. I still think his department is letting him down. Some remedial training is in order, maybe a suspension too. But forced resignation is in my opinion just the administration giving way to political pressure. The marine is certainly due a public apology, and compensation. However I would imagine that his marine training exposed him to mush worse treatment than the 5 seconds with the taser. A multimillion dollar lawsuit is not in order although it will probably happen and the County attorney will probably offer a very big settlement to stay out of court.
I think that there are several people who have posted here who really do hate police of any kind and authority of any kind. If you are the victim of a crime, do you want an officer to come to investigate it that is in control and investigates or one that lets everybody say, "hey ain't me" and walk off. Hindsight being 20/20, it's very easy to be indignant when you KNOW a mistake was made. Not so easy to know if it's gonna be a mistake when your the guy on the spot. There are good officers out there, bad ones too. It's always been that way and always will. I would suggest to any of those who feel like all officers are just flexing their badge and gun should look into local ride along programs and see what it's really like before coming to judgement.
Scott
The difference in the address (from article) was apartment A and B. We're not talking about down the street here. We're talking 30 or 40 feet left right or up and down. Also I believe the marine was outside when the deputy arrived. The article said his wife and child came outside to see him tasered. It also said the deputy explained why he was there and why he was asking for compliance. He also gave a warning as to what he would do. The department policy as given in the longer article basicly was to use the taser before resorting to hands on control. The PC for using the taser in this case was that the subject was refusing to comply with being detained until things were sorted out. He was at what might be a crime scene, 911 calls usually have some basis in fact even when it turns out to not be a crime. A basic "Terry stop", I.D. and question, was in order and I believe the deputy had the necessary reasonable suspicion to justify it. Remember reasonable suspicion is based on what the deputy knew at the time. The marine threw his ID at the deputy's feet which depending on his attitude at the time could have been interprited as threatening to the officer (prelude to attack). The deputy's backup didn't arrive until after the taser was used. In my county, there may be ten or twenty minutes lag time on the second deputy arriving.
It's very easy for the marine to say to the reporter, "I wasn't doing nuthin and the dude just shot me with the taser. That guy's out of control". Reporter will print it. The department is going to say, "the matter is under investigation and we will reserve comment until the investigation is complete". I doubt anyone witnessed the actual attempt to detain and interview the marine. His wife only came out as he was being tased. Does anyone know what his disposition was when the deputy asked him to stay put and wait for him to figure out what was up. What if he said "I ain't doin nuthin pig". Or "kiss my ....". I'm not saying that's what happened, just what if.
I've already admitted that I may indeed be guilty of circling the wagons at the onset of this thread. I felt like based on what was originally offered in print the deputy was getting a raw deal. I still think his department is letting him down. Some remedial training is in order, maybe a suspension too. But forced resignation is in my opinion just the administration giving way to political pressure. The marine is certainly due a public apology, and compensation. However I would imagine that his marine training exposed him to mush worse treatment than the 5 seconds with the taser. A multimillion dollar lawsuit is not in order although it will probably happen and the County attorney will probably offer a very big settlement to stay out of court.
I think that there are several people who have posted here who really do hate police of any kind and authority of any kind. If you are the victim of a crime, do you want an officer to come to investigate it that is in control and investigates or one that lets everybody say, "hey ain't me" and walk off. Hindsight being 20/20, it's very easy to be indignant when you KNOW a mistake was made. Not so easy to know if it's gonna be a mistake when your the guy on the spot. There are good officers out there, bad ones too. It's always been that way and always will. I would suggest to any of those who feel like all officers are just flexing their badge and gun should look into local ride along programs and see what it's really like before coming to judgement.
Scott
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