Flag your thumb, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Glock

[LiveLife]

I went from clang clang whiff clang whiff what the hell?

If you're Bob Vogel, it works. Forearms are like ropes of titanium, hands like a vise.

Well, here's Michelle Viscusi and at 0:48 second of video shows "typical" thumbs forward grip with hands not like a vise and forearms like my wife and sister's ... and steel plates going clang, clang, clang ...

A more formal explanation. I've used his grip technique for many years. I love how it locks out everything for Glocks

Good video on technique.

Vogel's a robot. I'm sure he's pressing in/wedging a lot harder than I am. And his support hand is basically covering the frame. His support hand is rotated far forward with his thumb actually pointing down.

I will see if I can make a video of my Glock grip, especially the two finger grip just with thumb and middle finger ... point shooting.

 

[1KPerDay]

Well, here's Michelle Viscusi and at 0:48 second of video shows "typical" thumbs forward grip with hands not like a vise and forearms like my wife and sister's ... and steel plates going clang, clang, clang ...

I wouldn't say her "typical thumbs forward grip" is akin to Vogel's. He goes to the next level and I've heard national level shooters talk about how Vogel's grip force/technique is next level even compared to them. Plus, she missed two shots on the first and third plates at 0:36

Note: I'm just armchair quarterbacking/jawjacking. ALL of these people are way better shooters than me.

 

[LiveLife]

she missed two shots on the first and third plates at 0:36

If you play back at 1/4 the speed, she hits two shots on first two plates (Look at movement of plates and dirt kicking up on ground) but looks like she missed the first shot on third plate.

Update: On closer review, looks like she missed the second shot on the first plate as I didn't see any dirt kicking up and plate became blurry for confirmation of second shot.

 

[LiveLife]

normal thumbs-forward, moderately aggressive grip but make sure to really crank my right thumb up and get it sliced by the slide and that appears to satisfy the Glock gods. I may try an aftermarket beaver tail (Gen 3), which before now I never saw the point of.

Here's my Glock 22 grip which is similar to Michelle's grip shown at 0:48 second of video.

I want to point out that my left (support) palm cheek is making full contact with the grip with left thumb contacting the frame with right (shooting) thumb resting hard (notice the blanching of bottom of thumb?) on top of my left thumb's joint to prevent it from flopping around to be cut by moving slide. This while doing the neutral push/pull of "V" of palm/hook of support finger for the firm grip Rob Leatham demonstrated (1:55 minute of video) and similar to what Hickok45 does (Although he fully extends his right elbow while pulling hard with his left hand/arm demonstrated at 5:55 minute of this video and he tucks his right thumb under the left but doing that makes me move the front sight).

 

[LiveLife]

Believe me, as Brian Zins explained along with Jerry Miculek, to keep the front sight from moving as the trigger nears the rear to release the striker, there needs to be some grip force to steady the pistol.

Try this (I don't think we addressed this before).

Once you form the neutral two handed grip, relax the hands and push on the frame with your left thumb while pressing down on the right thumb on the joint as shown in my grip picture above forming a long triangle and apply enough grip force to counteract the push on the frame and press/pull on the trigger and see if you can hold the front sight absolutely steady while the striker is released.

Notice, there is no torquing of hands/wrists or radial/rotational forces applied ... Just neutral push/pull and firm relaxed grip with two thumbs forming a long triangle along the frame to steady the pistol as the striker is released.

Does that make a difference?

And if it does, to reduce muscle fatigue, I transfer the grip work to my shoulders/back/chest muscles (that Hickok45 uses) so I can continue to hold the pistol steady without tiring out my hand/forearm muscles.

 

[LiveLife]

Another thing I noticed to is when I am shooting one hand (Right), there is slight movement of the front sight to the right when the striker is released with G22/G23 I just dry fired but when I apply the left thumb/right thumb triangle along with the neutral grip, even the lightest amount of force on the frame/left thumb joint steadies the front sight to almost not moving.

So as Brian Zins/Jerry Miculek stated, there is dynamic movement of trigger and frontsight that is happening all the way til (and even afterwards) striker is released. And even a tiny 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch movement could telegraph to 1/2" to 1.0"+ deviation on target, depending on distance.

 

[LiveLife]

OK, this is just for fun but may reveal something about shooter input.

Could you try a two finger grip (Thumb and middle finger) with one hand and dry fire?

You can shoot with pistol vertical or cant in (Like your hands at 10-2 O'Clock positions on steering wheel).

Watch the front sight and see what transpires which may reveal what could be happening just before and while the striker is released.

BTW, with my G22/G23, I can dry fire just with two fingers and not move the front sight (Or very slightly move the front sight horizontally, left-right), either with strong hand or weak hand (Especially with pistol canted to better lock the wrist).

 

[daniel craig]

I keep my strong hand thumb flagged. It’s more comfortable for me that way.

 

[DustyGmt]

I’ve been trying for a few years to get my skills at shooting my Glock 22/17/23/19 as well as I do my other pistols and nothing has really worked. I’ve tried different grip techniques and triggers and practice and push/pull and dynamic tension from the shoulders and blah blah but at speed I still would consider my abilities to hit the steel plates “second tier” compared to how I do with SIGs and Berettas and M&Ps and 1911s and CZs. I would still miss more of them, and miss inexplicably and stand there befuddled and shaking my head, when shooting my Glocks. The thing that really bothered me is that I kinda like the look and the heritage and the function and engineering of the Glock But it pissed me off that it supposedly required me to grip and shoot it completely differently from every other pistol

I struggled with this a lil bit too, I could shoot a 1911 .45 more accurately, not faster but more accurate than i could shoot my G17 and G19. It bothered me. I was invested heavily into glocks at this point and I wanted to know why I was shooting left all the time. Ultimately what I found was I had been shooting with an improper grip. I had all the right shooting fundamentals, recoil management, trigger control, grip strength, etc... but when I looked straight down my forearm I observed that my slide was canted a lil off center to the left, I needed to modify my grip just a tiny lil bit to make the slide align in a straight line with my forearm. Once I understood that and practiced the proper grip I have been shooting much, much better. This may or may not have anything to do with your problem, but I had been doing it wrong for quite some time and didnt even realize it.

Some people wont even consider modifying their grip, if it doesnt fit their hand perfectly the dismiss the platform altogether. Not me, I dont put much stock into how a gun feels in my hand or if it's the perfect fit. I think identifying the problem of not having the handgun indexed in a perfect straight line with my arm went a long way for me to be able to shoot any handgun effectively. It's something I did for a long time and once I identified it it fixed my problem. YMMV.

 

[1KPerDay]

I struggled with this a lil bit too, I could shoot a 1911 .45 more accurately, not faster but more accurate than i could shoot my G17 and G19. It bothered me. I was invested heavily into glocks at this point and I wanted to know why I was shooting left all the time. Ultimately what I found was I had been shooting with an improper grip. I had all the right shooting fundamentals, recoil management, trigger control, grip strength, etc... but when I looked straight down my forearm I observed that my slide was canted a lil off center to the left, I needed to modify my grip just a tiny lil bit to make the slide align in a straight line with my forearm. Once I understood that and practiced the proper grip I have been shooting much, much better. This may or may not have anything to do with your problem, but I had been doing it wrong for quite some time and didnt even realize it.

Some people wont even consider modifying their grip, if it doesnt fit their hand perfectly the dismiss the platform altogether. Not me, I dont put much stock into how a gun feels in my hand or if it's the perfect fit. I think identifying the problem of not having the handgun indexed in a perfect straight line with my arm went a long way for me to be able to shoot any handgun effectively. It's something I did for a long time and once I identified it it fixed my problem. YMMV.

I’m a little weird and it may have something so do with my issue. I’m right handed but strongly left eye dominant. So I basically have a little bend in my right wrist toward the right to help align my sights with my left eye. by the way Hickok45 on YouTube also shoots like this, and Larry Vickers when he shoots righty.

Anyhoo it seems to work fine with every pistol except 9/40 Glocks. The new thumb flagging technique seems to have meliorated my personal frustration at least for now.

 

[Tensaw]

I can miss with my G19 just as well as I do with my other pistols.

 

[Ignition Override]

If Glock had designed a version in DA/SA, I would have bought one.

A striker-fired DA/SA handgun? Does this creature exist?
“Meet” my Walther P99 AS.

 

[JR24]

If Glock had designed a version in DA/SA, I would have bought one.

A striker-fired DA/SA handgun? Does this creature exist?
“Meet” my Walther P99 “AS”.

Good call. Love the P99 AS, great gun.

 

[entropy]

I don't even know what my 'glock grip' looks like, except from my point of view behind the gun-but it works. I don't like the way Glocks look, I don't like the way they feel in my hand-but I like what I can do with them, which is nice tight, fast groups.

 

[JR24]

I don't even know what my 'glock grip' looks like, except from my point of view behind the gun-but it works. I don't like the way Glocks look, I don't like the way they feel in my hand-but I like what I can do with them, which is nice tight, fast groups.

Agree. Doubly exemplified with the Glock 19. Gen 3 and 4, the grooves are perfectly uncomfortable, Gen 2 and 5 are better but neither feel "good" in my hands, or anywhere near comfortable.

But they shoot in my hands, and do it well.

 

[JDR]

Here’s an article that mentions the difference in the grip angle between many other guns including a 1911, and a Glock;

http://progunleaders.org/Grip/

For me, I use Grip Force Adapters on my Gen3 17 &19, and then I use the large beavertail backstraps the came in the box on my 19X and my Gen4 21. These really help to make these guns point better and they also help to avoid slide bite.

 

[drobs]

I'll give that a try.

Lately I've been forcing myself to keep both eyes open and fully extending my arms when shooting my Glocks.

 

[JR24]

I noticed while working on trying the "pinch" method my front finger in my support hand started drifting into more of a wedge hold, especially on the Glocks.

Coincidentally, Mas Ayoob just had a video about the wedge hold drop on the Wilson Combat channel, might be worth a watch as well.

 

[LiveLife]

Flag your thumb ... and love the Glock

Mas Ayoob just had a video

In Episode 17 (2 prior episodes) Mas demonstrates the flagging and stacked thumb grip on 1911 and mentions the significance of actuating the grip safety (Also for Springfield XD) at 5:45 minute of video which is the grip I use as posted on post #39.



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