I am active military and was registering firearms on post when the Springfield M1A I had just purchased came up flagged. Apparently a similar rifle, although different model and one much older, had been stolen previously and my rifle had the same serial number. After an hour of waiting and conversing with an investigator I was told that whereever I take the rifle I should also carry any and all paperwork I have regarding it just in case. I was looking around online and by the lack of results, I am assuming this is not a common occurrence. I am considering selling the rifle and buying a new one (at potentially several hundred dollar loss) just to avoid any future headaches that might arise from this. Does anyone know if this is common and if I should be concerned? To me this seems like a liability as any potential entanglements with law enforcement could get ugly if they run the serial number on this rifle.
Flagged Serial Number on my new Rifle
- Thread starter pdz
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WestKentucky
Member
Buy a new reciever and move your parts over. Saves you money and gives you time to bond with the new baby.
Field Tester
Member
A new receiver for that type of rifle is going to cost just about as much as a full firearm, assuming you can find a bare receiver.
OP,
How often are you hassled on your other firearms? I'm not up to date on Military Regs so help me out. Each time you have a Change Of Station, do you have to re-register at the new base? This may be your deciding factor. A civilian wouldn't really have anything to worry about because nobody is checking your firearms on a consistent basis. Maybe if you sell through an FFL, but then you have the paperwork to back it.
If you do have to re-register for each COS, are you planning on being active much longer? Is it viable to leave the rifle with a trusted family member?
That's incredibly odd that the serial number was reused. I'll be watching this thread for input from those who know more than me.
You say the stolen rifle was a "similar rifle" and a "different model". What make and model is the stolen rifle? I spent over 30 years as a LEO, retiring as a Federal criminal investigator. I have seen duplication of serial numbers between different makes and models. If the stolen rifle is say a Norinco or Polytech M14 I wouldn't worry about it as you have a Springfield Armory.
If the investigator who your rifle figured out it wasn't the stolen one, any LEO could figure out the same.
If the investigator who your rifle figured out it wasn't the stolen one, any LEO could figure out the same.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Agree with Griz22. Sounds like the original investigator didn't understand that the model of the firearm is key as S/Ns from one manufacturer are rarely duplicated.
And welcome to THR!
And welcome to THR!
Blackhawk30
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I would copy all the paperwork and carry when ever you take the gun out.Keep the original paperwork in a sdb.
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herrwalther
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GRIZ22 said:
The military takes an extra step of paranoia when it comes to keeping track of sensitive items (weapons, night vision, things with serial numbers etc). I recall staying late one afternoon doing inventory in the arms room. Two different pieces of thermal optics had the same serial number. This resulted in the ENTIRE arms room being re inventoried to make sure "another" mistake wasn't made. And no one was allowed to leave until the matter was resolved satisfactory. The end result is we switched the thermal with another unit to get rid of one of the serial numbers.
OP: I would advise doing a straight up trade. Go on Armslist or similar website and see if anyone will do a trade model with you. Remove any accessories to go back to a stock M1A, explain why you want to trade a M1A with another because of hassle with serial numbers, with the documentation to back it up. Much less hassle when you PCS again.
Would seem like as long as you keep the paperwork, you would be fine. Especially if you got something from this incident. Not sure how long you plan to be in the military, but if you plan to get out in the near future and live in a free state its unlikely to ever come up again.
General Geoff
Member
If you can get a signed letter from the investigator stating the problem, and the rifle is still new and unfired with original box, I'd say call Springfield Armory and ask if they will exchange it for a rifle with a different serial number.
Mainsail
Member
Sell it? Trade it? Seriously, how many more times do you think you'll be registering it?
There must be something more dramatic to spend your time worrying over.
There must be something more dramatic to spend your time worrying over.
I would.keep whatever paperwork they gave you with your bill of sale and not worry about it. The stolen gun is a different make and model of what you have. There is duplication of serial numbers between different manufacturers. While not common I have had several instances where there was a hit on the serial number inNCIC but it was a different make and model.
I wouldn't ask for any letters because if I was checking you and your gun out I'm conducting my own investigation no matter what letters you have.
I don't think contacting Springfield Armory would get them to exchange your rifle. They didn't do anything wrong.
FWIW I have an inexpensive 22 revolver with a serial number that hits in NCIC. However the stolen gun is a Garand. Not the same thing I know but it does happen.
I wouldn't ask for any letters because if I was checking you and your gun out I'm conducting my own investigation no matter what letters you have.
I don't think contacting Springfield Armory would get them to exchange your rifle. They didn't do anything wrong.
FWIW I have an inexpensive 22 revolver with a serial number that hits in NCIC. However the stolen gun is a Garand. Not the same thing I know but it does happen.
NavyLCDR
member
I wonder why they checked the serial numbers against a database to begin with. Complying with regulations and registering your guns with base police in no way would cause reasonable suspicion the guns were stolen. But that is exactly one reason why I will never tell a LEO about my firearm unless I am required to do so by law or regulation. Back when we used to have to register our vehicles and get base decals, did they run the VIN numbers to see if our cars were stolen?
I appreciate all the comments. The primary reason I am concerned is that both the stolen rifle and my rifle were made by Springfield Armory. Based on the information I was given. The stolen rifle is a Springfield Armory M1 Carbine .30, while my rifle is a Springfield Armory M1A Loaded .308. The similarities with the same serial number worry me because a less competent LEO might end up arresting me if he does not recognize the distinctions. (I would add that because of where I grew up my opinion of police is negatively biased; and this is despite having subsequently met exceptional police officers)
As for registering on post, I do not think that will be a major concern in the future as I do not plan to live on post again given all the bureaucracy (of which this was only a minor inconvenience).
The other concern is why Springfield re-used the same serial number. I am emailing them now to see if I can get any further information.
As for registering on post, I do not think that will be a major concern in the future as I do not plan to live on post again given all the bureaucracy (of which this was only a minor inconvenience).
The other concern is why Springfield re-used the same serial number. I am emailing them now to see if I can get any further information.
General Geoff
Member
Your M1A was built by Springfield Armory Inc., the company. The stolen M1 Carbine was built by Springfield Armory, the historic entity that built weapons for the U.S. Government. No relation aside from name.
bhk
Member
Your M1A was built by Springfield Armory Inc., the company. The stolen M1 Carbine was built by Springfield Armory, the historic entity that built weapons for the U.S. Government. No relation aside from name.
Springfield Armory (U.S. Government in Springfield, MA)) did not build M1 carbines. The carbine under discussion is most likely one of the few commercial carbine copies actually built by the current Springfield Armory company located in Illinois, the same manufacturer that made the OPs MIa.
It is ok if the same company puts the same serial numbers on different models produced by that company, but is certainly contributes to the problem the OP is facing. Keep the paperwork and the gun.
Springfield Armory (U.S. Government in Springfield, MA)) did not build M1 carbines. The carbine under discussion is most likely one of the few commercial carbine copies actually built by the current Springfield Armory company located in Illinois, the same manufacturer that made the OPs MIa.
It is ok if the same company puts the same serial numbers on different models produced by that company, but is certainly contributes to the problem the OP is facing. Keep the paperwork and the gun.
That kind of thing is the reason BATFE was given the authority under GCA 68 to rationalize serial numbers. The current regulation is that a manufacturer must not duplicate serial numbers within its production. That is the reason for Ruger's number prefix and S&W's complete divorce of SN's from model.
In the old days, a company like Colt would number the Official Police in one series, the Officers Model in another series, the Single Action Army in another, and so on. And the model would not always be marked. So anyone trying to trace Colt #12345 could find five or six different Colt revolvers with the same number. It was fairly common for innocent people to have their guns seized or even be accused of a crime because the SN of their gun matched one reported stolen.
Jim
In the old days, a company like Colt would number the Official Police in one series, the Officers Model in another series, the Single Action Army in another, and so on. And the model would not always be marked. So anyone trying to trace Colt #12345 could find five or six different Colt revolvers with the same number. It was fairly common for innocent people to have their guns seized or even be accused of a crime because the SN of their gun matched one reported stolen.
Jim
Willie Sutton
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"The stolen M1 Carbine was built by Springfield Armory, the historic entity that built weapons for the U.S."
No.
Springfield Armory in Springfield Mass never produced the M1 carbine.
Good reference here:
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_springfield.html
Same manufacturer, a M1 Carbine and M1a Rifle, both in .30 caliber, both with the same serial number... interesting. Seems like a good way to get in the middle of Officer Dumbjohn's day if the number is ever run again.
Generally I would not worry about it, but with the similarity of the designation, caliber (and yes, I know the difference between .30 carbine and .30-06), same manufacturer, well... <sigh>... maybe SA would swap out receivers with you for cost and bandsaw the one you have now. Can't hurt to ask.
Willie
.
No.
Springfield Armory in Springfield Mass never produced the M1 carbine.
Good reference here:
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_springfield.html
Same manufacturer, a M1 Carbine and M1a Rifle, both in .30 caliber, both with the same serial number... interesting. Seems like a good way to get in the middle of Officer Dumbjohn's day if the number is ever run again.
Generally I would not worry about it, but with the similarity of the designation, caliber (and yes, I know the difference between .30 carbine and .30-06), same manufacturer, well... <sigh>... maybe SA would swap out receivers with you for cost and bandsaw the one you have now. Can't hurt to ask.
Willie
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rodregier
Member
I can't remember for certain, but I seem to recall that current policy requires serving US military personnel to *also* report on personally owned firearms even when living off-base in non-mil housing. (Even if those firearms never went on-base).
{sigh}
{sigh}
alsaqr
Member
Army personnel living off base are required to register any guns brought onto the base for target shooting or hunting. Otherwise, off base personnel are not required to register their guns.
NavyLCDR
member
Nope. Not required to register any of mine.
Willie Sutton
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"I can't remember for certain, but I seem to recall that current policy requires serving US military personnel to *also* report on personally owned firearms even when living off-base in non-mil housing."
There's no blanket policy. The base where I work is one where you can bring firearms on base to use at the Rod & Gun Club range and not tell anyone. Transient housing in a no-firearms permitted area. On base housing is not similarly restricted. Off base there's nothing to discuss.
Willie
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There's no blanket policy. The base where I work is one where you can bring firearms on base to use at the Rod & Gun Club range and not tell anyone. Transient housing in a no-firearms permitted area. On base housing is not similarly restricted. Off base there's nothing to discuss.
Willie
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CoalTrain49
Member
That by itself is true.
They did however produce receivers with serial numbers. Might as well be a complete carbine because the receiver is the firearm in the eyes of the ATF.
If it were mine I wouldn't worry about it. I always go by the rule if I purchased it new and submitted the required paper work then I'm legally entitled to own it. I don't care how many receivers SA stamped with the same SN. Any local LEO would have to be a real DA to try to pin a possession of stolen property charge on you. It would have to be an M1 carbine for that to happen. If I'm not mistaken it would be marked as such.
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