Flashlight on home defense guns

[Shawn Dodson]

BBroadside writes:

What made the decision for me to not bother with a flashlight mounted on a handgun was the realization that I'd be pointing the weapon at someone I had yet to identify. Sorry, no way am I going to break one of the rules, certainly not as a standard and often obligatory part of defending my home.

I'm a big proponent of using verbal commands as part of my threat identification process. Something as simple as "Who's there?!" is adequate, unless you have a family member or friend who's hearing impaired.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I like the strobe feature that is on some weapons lights.

I prefer a simple on/off pressure switch - press it to turn the light on, release it to turn the light off. That's it.

I don't want to have to cycle through a series of switch manipulations to operate the light. Too much thinking when I want my mind free to deal with danger.

There's also the risk of Mr. Murphy showing up at the wrong moment and I inadvertantly cycle the light through it's various modes (strobe, turbo, SOS, beacon, etc.) when I simply want it to turn off - right now!

 

[Six]

My strobing TLR-1 turns off when I take the thumb off.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

Anyone who thinks having a light puts you at a tactical disadvantage has never used one in a critical incident. If you think that way, then you need to go train with the SureFire Institute. They have compiled a significant amount of information that proves how necessary lights are.
http://www.surefireinstitute.com/

And for what it's worth, invest in a clicky tail cap, or else a weapon light with a click or toggle switch for constant-on operation. When shooting in low-light/no-light, you will understand the importance of this option. Not only is it convenient, but it allows you to remove the mental attention from light operation to be solely concentrated on shooting. Illuminate when illuminating, shoot when shooting, move when moving. The less stuff you have to do at one time, the lower the instance of error in your actions.
When I do low-light training, there is a marked difference in my target transition abilities when using a pressure switch versus just using the clicky cap and leaving the light on.


While we're on the subject, there are some common catch phrases that I hear a lot that are absolutely ignorant or baseless. Rhetoric like:

"Having a light makes you a target and they can just shoot at the light."
Why are you not shooting first then? You don't use a flashlight to just sit there and wait to be shot. And FWIW, a bright enough flashlight will make this nearly impossible for the suspect.

"Lights on guns are just accessories that mall ninjas do to look tacticool."
Cops (like me), SWAT, FBI HRT, SAS, DEVGRU, 1SFOD-D CAG, anyone affiliated to SOCOM, and many more must be mall ninjas, because we all do it. I have a light on my duty pistol, my squad Colt M4, and my 12ga.


"Lights don't do anything to bad guys."
SureFire determined several years ago through study that a light that puts out 60 Lumens or more of light will blind and disorient a person in low-light conditions. The brighter the light, the greater the disorientation. This is why most modern weapon lights are 90-170 Lumens, and pocket flashlights are 60-200 Lumens, and both can get upwards of 600 Lumens with optioning. If a person is disoriented, they can't accurately shoot at anything. But are you just standing there blinding them and watching them shoot? Again, you should be shooting at this point. And while we're also on that topic, a light is what allows you to see your target. Once you have your target illuminated, you NEVER take the light off of them. If you do, they could move or pull out a weapon without you seeing. You have a known threat. You address the known immediate threat.

"Handheld lights are the only way."
So how are you going to open a door, dial a phone, or reload a magazine (God forbid it comes to that)? Handheld flashlights are A way, not THE way. I use both. The handheld is the backup. When the gun comes out, the handheld goes into the pocket.

"It takes a lot of training to use a light correctly."
Yes it does. So why aren't you training? Fail to train, and you train to fail. The same can be said about shooting one-handed, shooting with your reaction hand, and employing many other perishable skills. If it's too hard for you, I can get you the number for Brink's Home Security.

"You should know the layout of your house by memory without needing a light."
What about the toys your kid left lying on the living room floor that you may trip over? What about that hamper sitting on the steps that your wife left there before she went to bed? What about your daughter's 16yo boyfriend who snuck into the house through her bedroom window after you went to bed and is going for a snack in the kitchen? (okay, still shoot him...but try to wing him)

 

[Shadow 7D]

"Lights on guns are just accessories that mall ninjas do to look tacticool."

Well, since you think you are a mall ninja, who are we keyboard commandos to disagree

Seriously, it's training, and that in the end is the difference between a Takicool Mall Ninja and a trained individual who has a use for the crap and KNOWS HOW TO USE IT.

 

[Loosedhorse]

not bother with a flashlight mounted on a handgun was the realization that I'd be pointing the weapon at someone I had yet to identify.

How does this work for long guns?

I have struggled with a rifle and a hand-held flashlight, through a night-time "obstacle course" with shoot and no-shoot targets. No misses, it can be done.

I also went and bought a mounted flashlight for that rifle as soon as I got back from that training class. It is possible to use the scatter illumination with the gun not on target to locate and ID a target. But even when it's not, positive visual ID is (to me) better than shooting at something I haven't seen, or haven't seen well.

The "verbal ID" should work--if the person isn't half-asleep or a child scared into silence by your abrupt, loud challenge. And, of course, nothing prevents a criminal from shouting "POLICE OFFICER!" as he draws and shoots you. The criminal, after all, needn't worry about positive ID.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Every single time, they either turned their heads quickly away or brought their hands up to cover their eyes (or both).

I was just reading about a Houston home invasion. The homeowner forted up in the master bedroom with a shotgun. As he heard the intruders coming up the stairs, he announced he was armed and that police had been called. The intruders responded by shooting through the walls at him, so he stepped out into the hallway to return fire. He said he hit the first guy with the weapon mounted light and even though he had been shooting, he stopped shooting and raised the pistol to cover his eyes. By that time the homeowner had a load of 00 on the way and that ibtruder never fired another shot.

I thought that was interesting; because even having seen people do it in training, a part of me remained skeptical about whether people would do it in the heat of a life or death conflict. Apparently at least some people will.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The "verbal ID" should work--if the person isn't half-asleep or a child scared into silence by your abrupt, loud challenge. And, of course, nothing prevents a criminal from shouting "POLICE OFFICER!" as he draws and shoots you. The criminal, after all, needn't worry about positive ID.

A verbal challenge is issued from a position of advantage, cover or concealment not when you're out in the open, vulnerable and face-to-face with the threat.

A clever bad guy hollers "POLICE OFFICER!" in response? Simple, you respond: "I HAVE A GUN. I'VE CALLED POLICE. GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!"

 

[SentinelStrategic]

Seriously, it's training, and that in the end is the difference between a Takicool Mall Ninja and a trained individual who has a use for the crap and KNOWS HOW TO USE IT.

Training is exactly the issue. I consider it an obligation for every person to be proficient with the tools they need for their intended purpose. No only is it important to have the skill for use, but to have a legitimate understanding of the tactics necessary. Don't do it half-hearted. It's just like CCW- you owe it to yourself and everyone else to give it 100%.

 

[Loosedhorse]

from a position of advantage, cover or concealment not when you're out in the open

Sure, ideally. Ideally I never leave my locked bedroom as I wait for 911. If I have need to leave the bedroom armed, well, things get less ideal. But perhaps you were pointing out that a challenge might be a good addition to a light in some cases, and used before you're in flashlight range, as opposed to a substitute once you're already there.

Simple

Somehow, doesn't seem so simple, especially if I can't see him or his hands...and if I've just ordered him to approach me, because the exit is behind me.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Just some thoughts and observations...

1. The most common misconceptions among those not familiar with lights is that they are going to 1) leave one on (making themselves a target) and 2) use a weapon light as they would a household flashlight (to find their way around in the dark). In reality, the light is flashed only momentarily or for as long as is needed when you start shooting. It is used for positive target ID. The blinding effect against an opponent is an added bonus....frosting on the cake. Finding your way down the stairs (in your own house) shouldn't require any light.

2. As SentinelStrategic already noted, every professional CQB or raiding force on planet earth has been using tactical lights for years. Ask yourself why that is? Don't you think they might have learned a thing or two about lights in the last couple of decades and gotten rid of them if they were ineffective?

3. Every single hand held combat light grip variant is a compromise which requires a less than optimal grip on the weapon. You cannot hold a combat light and simultaneously exercise your ideal grip on a handgun or long gun. Accuracy suffers even among expert shooters. You also must train yourself to manipulate multiple items already filling both hands when you finally need to deal with magazine changes, malfunction drills, etc. Otherwise, you will find yourself fumbling a weapon, an old magazine, a new magazine (or speed loader), and a light...all with two hands...while your heart is about to explode with adrenaline...and someone is quite possibly trying to kill you. Simpler to point a weapon mounted light and squeeze pad or press button/lever while retaining a secure grip and better sight picture.

4. People get up in arms about the Four Rules of Firearms Safety. It's good to have internalized those rules and live them. It's admirable to inculcate that philosophy among fellow shooters. It's also stupid to cling blindly to ALL wrote safety measures when you find yourself in a life and death situation. Hell yes...you are supposed to point the muzzle at the threat. Yes, your safety is going to come off as you cover the target with that same muzzle. Your finger is still off the trigger isn't it? Your muzzle oriented/mounted light has just let you know whether you have a threat and what is beyond that threat. Shoot or no-shoot decisions are a function of situational awareness and your level of training. Why would you be any better at making that split-second, life altering decision to shoot...without a light? Or be able to hit a moving target while fumbling with a handheld light and a less-than-great grip on your weapon?

5. If you are on home ground and the issue of target ID or situational awareness becomes an issue...and handling that handheld or weapon mounted light becomes a chore...reach over and flip on a light switch. You don't have to fight in the dark. Unless the power is out.

6. I've seen people in force-on-force training deliberately aim for the light on someone's weapon. The defenders are dark adapted, in a shoot house they have prepared or at least scouted, and determined to attrit as many of their opposing friends as possible. They usually get some Simunitions hits on the assaulters. The defenders have already had time to mentally prepare for what is coming. They know they are going to go point blank with someone at a pre-identified choke point or fatal funnel. They are armed, mentally alert, expecting what's coming next...and most importantly...can take any aggressive posture they choose...'cause it's not real bullets. There is no actual risk.

Train as you fight and all that...but, it doesn't happen that way for real.

It's two AM, your outside door just blew off its frame and someone from outside banged the room with a distraction device. You just rolled out of bed a second or two ago, in your underwear, no shoes, bleary-eyed with sleep, heart racing into your throat, reaching for the damn gun on the nightstand...or maybe yelling instructions to your wife or children...people are loudly yelling, the dog is barking, your locked bedroom door is kicked in, and someone (or two) bursts into the room while illuminating you and screaming for you to freeze. You are instantly blinded ('cause you looked didn't you?). At this point you are momentarily at task and sensory overload. You (hopefully) hesitate just before a big guy or a big dog takes you down. If you keep reaching for that gun (or move the muzzle of the one in your hand)... bullets come out of that blinding light and you are ventilated. Dead. It happens just like that, everyday, somewhere in this world.

Or,

You wake at two AM to noise coming from your car parked in the drive. You unwisely elect to go outside and investigate. In the dark driveway, you realize SOMEONE is actually inside your auto. You are pumped up and start to yell at them to come out while pointing your light-equipped Mossberg, but at least have the presence of mind to shine the light...lo and behold...Junior elected to occupy the backseat of Dad's Explorer with his new girlfriend. You see familiar faces, eyes squinted at the light, and hands covering eyes. You drop your shaking muzzle, restart your heart, and commence to counseling the kids. Imagine the same scenario without a light. Or with a light in one hand and a 12 gauge in the other.

Better to have a light. Ideally mounted on the weapon. You don't have to use it, but it's there. You can even use a second light in your hand for searching or path finding (if it's not yet time to cover things with a firearm).

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"Having a light makes you a target and they can just shoot at the light."
Why are you not shooting first then? You don't use a flashlight to just sit there and wait to be shot. And FWIW, a bright enough flashlight will make this nearly impossible for the suspect.

I am sorry, but this is about as naive as a response as they claim that the light just makes you a target. Why are you not shooting first? Simple. You are shining your light and looking in a direction where the bad guy isn't. Why would you be shooting if you having seen the suspect yet? Just because he can see you does not mean you can see him. To believe otherwise would be naive.

A bright enough flashlight will not make it nearly impossible for the suspect. If all he can see is a really bright light, then that is what he will shoot toward. Tran at TR used this tactic over and over to take out teams sent in to clear the Terminator of the "threat" in FOF simunition training. Tran didn't carry a flashlight.

"Lights don't do anything to bad guys."SureFire determined several years ago through study that a light that puts out 60 Lumens or more of light will blind and disorient a person in low-light conditions. The brighter the light, the greater the disorientation. This is why most modern weapon lights are 90-170 Lumens, and pocket flashlights are 60-200 Lumens, and both can get upwards of 600 Lumens with optioning. If a person is disoriented, they can't accurately shoot at anything. But are you just standing there blinding them and watching them shoot? Again, you should be shooting at this point.

Surefire wants to sell lights. 60 lumens won't disorient my 9 year old little girl as 150 lumens doesn't stop her at all. She just charges the light.

If a person is disoriented, they can't accurately shoot anything? All they have to do is shoot toward the light. Given CQB distances, I have not doubt that they can shoot accurately enough to be a significant threat to life, assuming they are actually disoriented which is a rather dubious hope.

And while we're also on that topic, a light is what allows you to see your target. Once you have your target illuminated, you NEVER take the light off of them. If you do, they could move or pull out a weapon without you seeing. You have a known threat. You address the known immediate threat.

I see you aren't familiar with addressing multiple known threats not bunched together and threats are commonly not singular. All of a sudden the notion of never taking the light off the known target doesn't work so well because you will have to take your light off one to see another. So much for that theory.

I am actually a huge fan of weapon lights, but I see a lot of far fetched arguments on both sides of the issue that equally don't make good sense.

 

[Rexster]

I have been working big-city night shift police patrol since 1984, and have seen lighting equipment and tactics evolve. I have learned some by watching others, some by training, and some by trial and error. I cannot post my credentials, due to strict rules on identifying myself in social media as a member of my PD, and because of a prohibition on discussing PD policies publicly or even seeming to endorse any product.

When searching a darkened area or structure, I want a weapon-mounted light, a.k.a. WML, and hand-held lights. I may not hit the WML's "on" button during an entire search, but there are times when I might.

Keep in mind, that in an urbanized area, total darkness is rare, so two adversaries, or potential adversaries, may be able to see each other, but there is not enough light for positive ID, or to tell the difference between friend, foe, or an idiot who should not be there, but shooting him would be an undesirable headache.

As for not making a target of yourself, that is a valid concern, and that is where training comes in. Light can be a tremendous tactical advantage, and it can also draw fire. Learn to use it to your advantage. Or, do not. It is your choice. I will not try to teach individual techniques merely by the typed word.

My favored WML is a Surefire X200, which will be joined sooner or later by an X300. My favored hand-held lights, starting with my most-carried, are all Surefires: LX2 Digital Lumamax, Surefire M3 Millennium, a second M3, Commander rechargeable, and if I can find where I misplaced it, M2 Centurion.

 

[strambo]

which will be joined sooner or later by an X300

You'll really like the latest x300s. The 170 lumen output is significantly brighter than my TLR-1 or G2 LED. Lots of performance in a small, light-weight light.

 

[8654Maine]

I have a big family in a small house.

I NEED to ID my target and the backdrop.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

I am sorry, but this is about as naive as a response as they claim that the light just makes you a target. Why are you not shooting first? Simple. You are shining your light and looking in a direction where the bad guy isn't. Why would you be shooting if you having seen the suspect yet? Just because he can see you does not mean you can see him. To believe otherwise would be naive.

A bright enough flashlight will not make it nearly impossible for the suspect. If all he can see is a really bright light, then that is what he will shoot toward. Tran at TR used this tactic over and over to take out teams sent in to clear the Terminator of the "threat" in FOF simunition training. Tran didn't carry a flashlight.
....
Surefire wants to sell lights. 60 lumens won't disorient my 9 year old little girl as 150 lumens doesn't stop her at all. She just charges the light.

If a person is disoriented, they can't accurately shoot anything? All they have to do is shoot toward the light. Given CQB distances, I have not doubt that they can shoot accurately enough to be a significant threat to life, assuming they are actually disoriented which is a rather dubious hope.
....
I see you aren't familiar with addressing multiple known threats not bunched together and threats are commonly not singular. All of a sudden the notion of never taking the light off the known target doesn't work so well because you will have to take your light off one to see another. So much for that theory.

I am actually a huge fan of weapon lights, but I see a lot of far fetched arguments on both sides of the issue that equally don't make good sense.

I think you're basing your statements off of an assumption that you're in the middle of a parking lot or in a warehouse. What you need to keep in mind is that the average home is less than 3,000sq.ft and almost all rooms are able to be completely illuminated with a single light, supposing you have a light bright enough. If you're standing in the middle of a 10,000sq.ft warehouse, yeah, your light will make you a target. However, most people don't live in a mansion with a foyer that you could fit a circus tent in. The longest line of sight in most residential dwellings is usually a hallway. Otherwise, most larger rooms are usually no greater than 30-45' in distance (10-15yds), and those are garages and living rooms/rec rooms. Most other rooms are much less.

To say that lights don't work to disorient is to dismiss an actual asset. I know they work from personal experience. The issue with the light is that the focused portion of the beam must be directly in the eyes of the assailant. Now, will they cower and drop to ground in the fetal position as SureFire would have you believe? No. But that momentary disorientation is enough to give you an advantage. I think people believe that a light will disorient and blind for several minutes and keep an assailant at bay. Alas No, it will not. It is a momentary instance that allows you to gain a tactical advantage to assess whether you should shoot or not. Nothing more.

Using a light to illuminate a suspect gives you the tactical advantage. I am very familiar with multiple threats. Again, you need to consider the arena in which the light is being employed. We're talking about a residential dwelling, which likely will have tight confines. Body positioning is key to survival. You don't stand in the middle of a stairwell with an uncleared area to your back. Things like standing with your back to a wall, or using a corner for cover with secure area to your rear are extremely important in establishing and maintaining that tactical advantage. When you have a known threat, you need to address that threat. Shoot, don't shoot and run, whatever. But address it. If there's a guy in hiding off to your 9 o'clock, oh well. You can't expect to win every contingency. You can only hope to adapt and overcome through application of skill and training. If that means shooting the first suspect and hoping to get a shot off at the second before he stabs you, so be it. Taking your light off of a known ACTIVE threat is bad idea. You may or may not have another threat, but you do know that you have at least one, so why would you give up your advantage? The instant you remove the light is the instant that the suspect can grab for a gun, a knife, or just take off running and you won't see it until it's too late. If you keep your light on them, you will see when they reach for their waistband, and you can shoot them if they do. It's kind of hard to shoot what you can't see.

But it all goes around to why you have the gun pointed in the first place. If you illuminate them with your light and you see a threat, you should not be standing there for 30 seconds deciding whether or not you should shoot. In my state, the fact that they're in my house is enough for me to shoot them, and that is what I will do. I will drop them, do my 360 scan, and then assess my situation and act as necessary.
All of my previous statements in the last thread are based around the understanding that you are not just standing there for 5 minutes with a light pointed at someone. Lights are employed effectively in seconds, not minutes.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Double Nagant
I took out a swat team in a FOF solely on their lights
They had lights, we didn't
they tossed CS and smoke (and I itched like the dickens till I got home, and my mom almost had an asthma attack when I walked by)

We hosed everyone of the officers, badly, and the still NEVER got either one of us (When I went 'down' it was mostly for my safety, as they were getting WAY too close to be safe)

Do I blame that on the lights, NO, it was bad tactics.
IF you practice the decision, use you low light vision to show you where the target is, shine the light, and if it ISN'T a friendly, you fire, and you do that before they figure out whats happening. OODA, get inside the loop and beat them, shining the light and yelling 'go away I'm calling the cops' is a nice sentiment, but not the action you should be doing.
Shoot Move Communicate.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Shadow7D: I took out a swat team in a FOF solely on their lights...We hosed everyone of the officers, badly, and the still NEVER got either one of us

I have no doubt that the FOF drills went down as you stated (nor do I doubt bad tactics on the part of the SWAT team you mentioned).

However (as I also previously stated)...it doesn't happen that way for real.

Sims, Paintball, Airsoft, blanks, or MILES aren't real bullets. Real bullets change everything and in a way that cannot be replicated in a training venue.

My rule of thumb for FOF TRAINING is that 1-2 folks can invariably grind up an assaulting force of up to five times their size.

My rule of thumb for reality is that the same 1-2 defenders are doomed unless they have an uncovered route of escape. Seen it many times...

 

[Shadow 7D]

actually it did, the one officer was 45* from the door at the back of the bed room with good vis down the hall, and I was in the bathroom shooting 90* to the hall, we got in place then they lit off a few high capacity smokes and high volume CS grenades, making what one officer called 'loaded smoke'.

The smoke and CS was so thick that when the one officer came to get me I had to tap his boot because HE COULDN'T SEE ME, literally couldn't see the end of the gun it was so thick

BUT YOU COULD SEE THE GLOW OF THEIR FLASH LIGHTS
The cop who came to get me, I had to talk him over to where I was. Some of the officers shot into the bathroom, most didn't realize it was there. All shot over me.
The one that 'found me' I found out in the AAR did so by running his hand on the wall to find the bathroom. He knew it was there, that they had been getting shot from it, but kept going past the doorway not seeing it.

BTW in fencing they say the truly dangerous is the rank amateur and the master. At that point in time, I was a great paintball player but had no idea about police or CQB tactics.

 

[Chindo18Z]

...they lit off a few high capacity smokes

As you mentioned...silly tactics.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, but it was FUN, especially for a 17 year old who was about to ship off to basic.
Stuck in a house straight out of a horror film
(partly burned out, abandoned home on National Forrest land, it was getting burned the next day by the fire department)

With a swat team outside, yeah, that was fun, and I KNOW at least one officer will never turn his head on a uncuffed person within reach of a weapon.

Bad tactics, and something they discussed, BUT it was pointed out that sometimes they won't have the options, say the BG lit the place on fire with hostages inside?

As for lights, it much more on HOW you use them, in that case they had the lights on ALL the time trying to see, when it actually hindered their ability to see, think dense fog with your brights on, you get blinded by the white out. when using ambient light lets you see much further. Oh, and I mention it as an example of lights being a "SHOOT ME" beacon.
The other side was that in such a situation, there is a MUCH HIGHER CHANCE of a cop shooting another cop due to not identifying the target.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think you're basing your statements off of an assumption that you're in the middle of a parking lot or in a warehouse.

Nope, I am basing it on experience in simulator and house searching. Just because you have a light doesn't mean you see everything.

To say that lights don't work to disorient is to dismiss an actual asset.

And I would say that you are confusing what might happen as being what will happen.
There is no harm in dismissing possible disorientation as an asset. There is potentially considerable harm in counting on disorientation as an asset and then not having it happen.

Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of lights and their use. I just have not seen the claims made about their use as weapons to have materialized with a sufficiently consistent manner for me to count on them to work in such a manner consistently.

 

[Sgt_R]

I have a wife and three kids in my house, not to mention the occasional overnight guest. I'm not going to pull the trigger until I've ID'd my target; thus, the nightstand gun has a Streamlight on it.

R

 

[KodiakBeer]

One of the few advantages you have is the element of surprise. Why throw that away by announcing your position or approach with a flashlight? It makes no sense at all to me.

 

[2WheelsGood]

I like the strobe feature that is on some weapons lights. It allows you to identify what you are aiming at, and it disorients the target at the same time.

I'm finding it hard to see the advantage of a strobe. All of my good lights have that feature, but I can't see how it's useful. Any sense of disorientation felt by an intruder is going to affect you just as much.