Flashlight vs weapon light vs…

[Mosin77]

For home defense purposes, I wonder if it’s not better to just turn on the regular room lights, if that is an option?

I live in a relatively normal house in a quiet suburb. Lately I’ve been thinking I need a weapon light, because well, light is good. If there’s a bump in the night I need to identify the target since I will be liable for any shot fired, etc etc. I think we often think of SWAT officers hitting a drug den where they are capitalizing on surprise or really have no control over lighting, or soldiers clearing a dim house in Bagdahd with few windows, etc. But if we have control over the lights, and know (because it’s our own home) that turning on the lights is safe and they’re not booby-trapped, wouldn’t turning them on provide better illumination than any portable light? Also seems like it would be something of a notice for criminals that someone’s home and responding to the threat, and that clearing out would be a very good idea. Admittedly one would lose the “advantage of surprise,” but again, in a home defense scenario, it seems like it would be better to give a bit of warning and give them the chance to run?

I think most of us would have have no moral qualms about shooting and stopping anyone who broke into our homes, and in my state I don’t have an obligation to run, either, but I can’t help but think the scenario is a little different than the “night combat” with WMLs as typically imagined.

Obviously if you are a cop entering a dark alley, or live on a farm and the main concern is investigating that noise near the chicken coop, a WML is undeniably applicable.

I welcome any thoughts here. Maybe there is something I am not thinking of?

 

[Armored farmer]

You don't always get to pick the scenario.
It's better to have it and not need it.......

My personal HD pistol currently has a wml on it. I deal with four legged varmits quite often. I can tell you that handling a pistol, flashlight, dog, or broomstick to poke a critter out from under something causes you to run out of hands .
If for some reason the wml is not wanted....just don't turn it on.

I didn't go get the pistol with the mounted light for this one.

 

[Jeff White]

I covered that in this thread:

Low Light, Tactics, Techniques and Procedures

old lady new shooter asked in this post in taliv's thread; http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10028461&postcount=47 Perhaps you and others could share your experience and opinions of various light and laser devices. It's been a while since we had this discussion here so I thought we...

www.thehighroad.org

Everyone’s situation is different. The big thing to keep in mind is that your weapon is not a flashlight, it’s still a weapon with a light mounted on it. All of the four rules apply.

If you have a WML you must supplement it with a handheld light.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

LED lightbulbs use very little electricity and cost a few cents to leave on all night. A few strategically located lights left on at night can eliminate the need for a WML.

Amazon sells Bluetooth LED lightbulbs that can be controlled from your phone. If need be you can just command all lights on in the house.

LED nightlights can also be useful.

But all options should always be backed up with a handheld flashlight.

 

[Mosin77]

I covered that in this thread:

Low Light, Tactics, Techniques and Procedures

old lady new shooter asked in this post in taliv's thread; http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10028461&postcount=47 Perhaps you and others could share your experience and opinions of various light and laser devices. It's been a while since we had this discussion here so I thought we...

www.thehighroad.org

Everyone’s situation is different. The big thing to keep in mind is that your weapon is not a flashlight, it’s still a weapon with a light mounted on it. All of the four rules apply.

If you have a WML you must supplement it with a handheld light.

I just read your thread Jeff. Amazing writeup and I’m sorry to say I never noticed it before. Thank you for your insights.

 

[herrwalther]

I am a staunch fan of WMLs. Nearly every firearm I would grab for social or critter work has a light, even my carry pistols have lights. The other point to that is I have trained a lot with weapon lights and night vision between military and law enforcement careers. Just buying a weapon light isn't enough. You have to know how to use it.

A crux matter with using WML for home defense is power outages. Where I live, they can happen quite frequently. I ususally lose power about once a week and can be out for hours at a time. I love my smart tech but when it comes to life and death defense, I would rather have something on battery power than something electrical that can go out at any time.

 

[LiveLife]

I covered that in this thread ... So what can we do to mitigate the handicap of darkness? The number one thing is to have a light.

I just read your thread Jeff. Amazing writeup and I’m sorry to say I never noticed it before. Thank you for your insights.

Nice write up.

I am a staunch fan of WMLs. Nearly every firearm I would grab for social or critter work has a light, even my carry pistols have lights.

BTW, many WMLs on 4th of July sales - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...your-independence.931746/page-2#post-12931359

SIG SAUER FOXTROT 1X MOUNTED WEAPON LIGHT Clearance $54.99 - https://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-sauer-foxtrot-1x-mounted-weapon-light-black-sof12001.html​

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CRIMSON TRACE RAIL MASTER 200 LM WHITE LED UNIVERSAL TACTICAL LIGHT $68.95 - https://palmettostatearmory.com/cri...ed-universal-tactical-light-black-cmr209.html​

​

VIRIDIAN C5L CUSTOM 550 LUMENS LED LIGHT W/ GREEN LASER $119 - https://palmettostatearmory.com/viridian-c5l-custom-550-lumens-led-light-w-green-laser-930-0041.html​

​

VIRIDIAN C5L SIG P365 550 LUMENS LED LIGHT W/ GREEN LASER $119 - https://palmettostatearmory.com/vir...-lumens-led-light-w-green-laser-930-0044.html​

 

[Shawn Dodson]

A .pdf copy of Ken Good's book, "The Strategies of Low Light Engagement", can be downloaded for free at:

http://www.gandalf23.com/stuffz/FlashlightUsageSection.pdf

 

[JTHunter]

LED lightbulbs use very little electricity and cost a few cents to leave on all night. A few strategically located lights left on at night can eliminate the need for a WML.

Amazon sells Bluetooth LED lightbulbs that can be controlled from your phone. If need be you can just command all lights on in the house.

LED nightlights can also be useful.

But all options should always be backed up with a handheld flashlight.

Line #1 - true, but that gives the burglar the advantage as they aren't as likely to trip or knock something over in the darkness.
Line #2 - not everybody has a "smart phone" OR wants to be messing with one while holding a firearm.
It is better to have darkness and use a flashlight of sufficient lumens output to be "disorienting" in the darkness.

 

[JTHunter]

How many of you have watched or seen a situation where somebody is "clearing" a structure (house, office, etc.) and has a good light in their weak hand with the weak wrist under the gun and strong hand supporting them? Doesn't that seem like a better situation where you aren't, by necessity pointing your gun & light in the same direction at the same time? Keep the light pointed so that it is slightly ahead of the barrel's direction of movement (sweeping) so you have a chance of IDing something before it is "under the barrel".

 

[FL-NC]

For home defense purposes, I wonder if it’s not better to just turn on the regular room lights, if that is an option?

I live in a relatively normal house in a quiet suburb. Lately I’ve been thinking I need a weapon light, because well, light is good. If there’s a bump in the night I need to identify the target since I will be liable for any shot fired, etc etc

For any number of reasons. "normal and quiet" can turn on a dime. Where one is residing (even if only for 1 night) can and will change at times for most people, and it may not be planned.

. I think we often think of SWAT officers hitting a drug den where they are capitalizing on surprise or really have no control over lighting, or soldiers clearing a dim house in Bagdahd with few windows, etc

In a HD scenario, the attacker will likely be capitalizing on surprise. FWIW, speed and violence of action are also principles of a raid in military doctrine, and will likely apply to both sides in such a scenario.

. But if we have control over the lights, and know (because it’s our own home) that turning on the lights is safe and they’re not booby-trapped, wouldn’t turning them on provide better illumination than any portable light?

If it is your own home, your biggest advantage is knowledge of the structure and who/what is in it. Tactically speaking, the defender is generally in a superior position, which is why the amount of personnel used in the mil/LE to attack fixed positions should always be larger than the element in defense. Turning on interior lights gives an advantage to the attacker at that point after breach, as it gives them better visibility, and also gives away YOUR position, or at least lets them know what room YOU are in- and once things get spicy, turning that light off again may not be an option. Also, power may be cut off due to a weather event or the attackers tampering with it prior to breach. Many criminals use power outages to their advantage after storms or whatnot.

Also seems like it would be something of a notice for criminals that someone’s home and responding to the threat, and that clearing out would be a very good idea. Admittedly one would lose the “advantage of surprise,” but again, in a home defense scenario, it seems like it would be better to give a bit of warning and give them the chance to run?

That depends 100% on the motivations and mental state of the attacker(s). I don't want to depend on them for anything, and I definitely don't want to give them the gift of light. Once breach has occurred, we are playing "catch-up", time is of the essence, and its pretty much "on", and we are WAY past the warning stage, second chances, etc, IMO.

I think most of us would have have no moral qualms about shooting and stopping anyone who broke into our homes, and in my state I don’t have an obligation to run, either, but I can’t help but think the scenario is a little different than the “night combat” with WMLs as typically imagined.

Obviously if you are a cop entering a dark alley, or live on a farm and the main concern is investigating that noise near the chicken coop, a WML is undeniably applicable.

I welcome any thoughts here. Maybe there is something I am not thinking of?

I don't see a significant difference. A gunfight is combat, period- no matter where when or how it happens. The only variation is that a light equipped firearm (typically used by LE or the mil during offensive operations) is now being used by a lawful gun owner defending an offensive operation that is being executed by a criminal. So, just utilizing a simple piece of gear for a tactical advantage.
That being said, there are preferred tactics, techniques, and procedures to using white light effectively and safely in a gunfight, so just like with the gun it is attached to, training is definitely in order. Either attend a course in the use of weapon lights, or if you happen to know someone like a police officer with the requisite training, at least pick his/her brain on what the best practices are on the matter, and maybe run through a few scenarios, even if it is "dry fire' only. Just buying a light on amazon and snapping it to the rail doesn't truly address the issue, any more than buying your first gun and a box of ammo, pairing gun and ammo together, and sticking it in your nightstand drawer without ever practicing with the thing does.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Line #1 - true, but that gives the burglar the advantage as they aren't as likely to trip or knock something over in the darkness.
Line #2 - not everybody has a "smart phone" OR wants to be messing with one while holding a firearm.
It is better to have darkness and use a flashlight of sufficient lumens output to be "disorienting" in the darkness.

#1 - Interior lights on at night create tactical ambiguity. "Burglars" break in to commit property crimes, and if they're unsure if someone is home or somebody is home and awake, then they'll move on to an easier target, because they don't want to get caught.

#2 - You and your wife can be a team - she turns on the lights with her smartphone and stands by to call 9-1-1 while you check things out.

#3 - It's riskier to "sneak" around the house playing burglar hunt in the dark with a flashlight/WML than it is to use a verbal challenge ("Who's there!) and verbal commands ("I have a gun! I've called police! Get out!") from a position of advantage if you believe there's an intruder in your home. It's more dangerous for someone to approach a defender. Clearing buildings and rooms is a dangerous activity, which is why police use a team of officers to do that.

 

[Elkins45]

I’ve moved away from using pistol-type lights using disposable batteries on long guns. I mounted one of these in a scope ring on the rail mount of my shotgun. I had to shim it with aluminum from a soda can for a snug fit, but that’s a trivial thing.

Amazon.com

I know it’s bulkier but using it gives me an 18650 rechargeable battery and a bigger selection of modes. And it’s a lot less expensive.

 

[Kleanbore]

Line #1 - true, but that gives the burglar the advantage as they aren't as likely to trip or knock something over in the darkness.

Why do so many people believe that burglaries are likely to occur after nightfall and after bed-time?

Do we expect the perpetrators to try to find valuables in the dark of night, or might they bring flashlights?

 

[Telekinesis]

Depends on how your house is set up, but most of the time you have to enter the room before you can turn on the lights. That could put you in an awkward situation should a bad guy actually be in the room.

Turning on the lights in one room usually doesn’t turn the lights on in adjoining rooms/hallways, so you also end up with a lot of areas in shadow where you can’t see in, but if someone was in the adjoining room they could see you (perfectly lit up). This is an excellent use case for a WML (lighting up shadows in an otherwise lit environment).

How many of you have watched or seen a situation where somebody is "clearing" a structure (house, office, etc.) and has a good light in their weak hand with the weak wrist under the gun and strong hand supporting them? Doesn't that seem like a better situation where you aren't, by necessity pointing your gun & light in the same direction at the same time? Keep the light pointed so that it is slightly ahead of the barrel's direction of movement (sweeping) so you have a chance of IDing something before it is "under the barrel".

That technique was designed to effectively lock the light and gun together so that the light points where the gun is pointed and you get a little bit more support when firing the gun (vs firing one handed). It was NOT designed to point the light in a different direction than the gun in order to identify targets.

It’s only better than a weapon light in situations where you are not allowed to have a weapon light. All of those “light in hand” methods were developed prior to good pistol WMLs being available, and no techniques for that have been developed since. What does that tell us about the effectiveness? It also doesn’t translate well to long guns.

Go try it some time - it doesn’t even have to be dark to practice the light holding technique. It is significantly easier to shoot with a WML (normal 2 handed grip) vs a separate flashlight.

And not to be that guy, but if you’re worried about pointing a gun at someone while using a WML, you need
A) training
and B) better tools
That’s an “issue” that’s been solved for over a decade.

 

[shafter]

Most people don't have the opportunity to train live fire in the dark with a WML so my advice is to just turn your light on if at all possible.

I'm a proponent of weapon lights but using it isn't my go to. I want as much light to see exactly who's in my house, where they are, and how many there are. If you have even basic home security procedures in place the person inside probably isn't a drunk who wandered to the wrong door but a person or persons who very deliberately and aggressively smashed their way through your door and moving quickly through your house. They've just ambushed you not the other way around.

 

[Kleanbore]

I want as much light to see exactly who's in my house, where they are, and how many there are.

So do I.

 

[shafter]

If you have solid doors and you wake up to the sound of someone trying to break it in and you are able to get out of bed and arm yourself before they breach the door you have all the advantages on your side. However, if you wake up to the sound of the door smashed open and the intruder(s) is already in your house you are in some deep trouble, especially if they're specifically after you and moving fast. Most houses aren't a mysterious maze that a stranger can only navigate with difficulty. With some exceptions, mostly a house is a house and the bad guy isn't going to have trouble finding the stairs or the bedroom whether its dark or not and since there isn't time to "set an ambush" just light it up as much as you can. Have a WML as well as a regular flashlight but don't make that your first plan.

The key is to never be in the situation in the first place. Harden your home as much as you can to buy time. SWAT teams hit houses every day and find heavily armed suspects who live by violence asleep in their beds who when confronted out of a deep sleep don't fight back because they know its a losing proposition. Don't put yourself in a position where you have to wake up and instantly fight. That's a really difficult fight to win and should be an easy fight to avoid.

 

[jmorris]

Lately I’ve been thinking I need a weapon light, because well, light is good.

Thats why I carry a flashlight with me all the time.

I do have a few mounted lights but these days, I really prefer to use a thermal, if I don't want to alert my intended target that I am there.

 

[Scrapiron45]

It's relatively simple to install the technology needed to remotely control any or all switched lighting in your house. If an intruder realizes you are awake, dog barking, alarms, lights turning on, etc. they are more inclined to exit. I have no desire to confront them, I just want them gone. If help is not available and a room to room search becomes necessary I want every light in the house on and my WML available.

Remotely controlled exterior and interior lighting is also nice to have when you get home after dark and you can light the place up before entering.

 

[jmorris]

Around the house, to the shops, front gate, range, chicken coop, generator I light paths with motion sensing lights. I can tell not only if something is moving but the directions its traveling. Even the solar powered cheep ones are pretty good, for a couple years before I replace them. They also work when power is out.

I do have lights around the pool that I can control with my cell phone though, a few outlets too for other tasks.

 

[jmr40]

I've come to appreciate a weapons mounted light. I may not be near enough a light switch and I like to be able to keep one hand free for other uses instead of a gun in one hand and a light in the other. There are no light switches when I'm camping.

I'm not trying to sneak up on anyone, if the light comes on and they leave, mission accomplished. Yes, if someone wants to shoot at you, they know where you are if the light is on. They know where you are in daylight too and you can turn the light on and off in seconds if necessary. You don't have to point the gun at someone to identify friend of foe. All of the lights are powerful enough to illuminate a room if you turn it on with the gun pointed down at the ground.

For me keeping one mounted while carrying isn't practical. At home I have a dedicated HD pistol with a mounted light. When camping or traveling the light snaps on at night in my tent, camper, or motel room. Comes off in the morning.

 

[FL-NC]

As someone who has participated in lots of night time "activities", both outdoors and inside of structures, both in training and in combat, and in scenarios with and without artificial light in play, I stand by my previous post and will die on that hill. There are multiple reasons my former unit preferred to conduct operations in the dark whenever possible, and I see no reason why similar tactics, techniques, proceedures, and equipment, along with intimate knowledge of the terrain, can't be used in the defense.

 

[luzyfuerza]

...there are preferred tactics, techniques, and procedures to using white light effectively and safely in a gunfight, so just like with the gun it is attached to, training is definitely in order. Either attend a course in the use of weapon lights, or if you happen to know someone like a police officer with the requisite training, at least pick his/her brain on what the best practices are on the matter, and maybe run through a few scenarios, even if it is "dry fire' only. Just buying a light on amazon and snapping it to the rail doesn't truly address the issue, any more than buying your first gun and a box of ammo, pairing gun and ammo together, and sticking it in your nightstand drawer without ever practicing with the thing does.

Amen.

Shooting a handgun accurately and quickly while illuminating with a WML is much easier than while using a handheld light. A little exposure to the various techniques and some range practice make this clear. But even firing a handgun using a handheld light is better than shooting in the dark at possible targets. Having these experiences will certainly help you evaluate your options.


But FWIW, when I lived in the situation the OP describes, I chose to turn on my home's interior lights remotely, while leaving my defensible position dark. And then retreating into that defensible position with a dedicated HD firearm which is equipped with a WML.

No way I was going to go on the offense, searching for bad guys. I could do that much more safely with interior and exterior cameras.

My current living conditions are different, so the measures I have in place now are also different.

 

[shafter]

Darkness typically favors the aggressor which is why the military/LE prefer to hit a house in the dark with NV if possible/legal.

Light typically favors the defender. You aren't ambushing or surprising anyone. There's no hide and seek. They know you're in there and since they got to pick the time they probably know you're in bed sleeping if it's at night and if they're able to crash through the door you've got seconds before you're face to face.

Everything changes if they get stalled at a strong door but if we fight inside the house I want light and lots of it.