tank mechanic
Member
If you layed a 22 inch shotgun barrel on the ground, and flattened it with a steamroller, could you then cut the barrel to less than the federally allowed 18 inches? Without the federal regulations applying?
flatten a shotgun barrel
- Thread starter tank mechanic
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I wasnt aware of any federal regulation regarding the appropriate length of a steel bar.... which is what you would have in such a case... may as well ask if you can melt it down into a brick without breaking federal regulation...
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Rail Driver
Member
Personally I don't like the idea of flirting with federal firearms regulations... Anything I attach to a shotgun receiver is either going to be legal length or I'll have the tax stamp approved and in hand to cover my butt.
You can argue that the barrel is flat, and will not fire, but the ATF (as we all know) has some very convoluted laws and regulations that mostly make no sense... I'd rather not press my luck as I like my gun collection too much to lose my rights. Even if you get charged and end up beating the charge it could harm your ability to buy firearms or renew (or get) a concealed weapons permit.
If you want an SBS, file the paperwork or get an airsoft.
You can argue that the barrel is flat, and will not fire, but the ATF (as we all know) has some very convoluted laws and regulations that mostly make no sense... I'd rather not press my luck as I like my gun collection too much to lose my rights. Even if you get charged and end up beating the charge it could harm your ability to buy firearms or renew (or get) a concealed weapons permit.
If you want an SBS, file the paperwork or get an airsoft.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I think you should be more clear about your question.
If you flatten a shotgun barrel with a steamroller it most likely will not be possible to remount it onto the receiver -- in which case there's no problem. Like PT1911 said, might as well become a steel brick.
If you're talking about mashing the end flat, cutting it to below 18" and then putting it back on the gun, then no, that probably wouldn't meet the BATFE's approval, and could be a potentially very dangerous thing to have around anyway.
FWIW, owning a shotgun barrel that is less than 18" is not a crime nor is it federally regulated in any way. Owning that barrel and a shotgun it fits on certainly can be.
Please explain a bit more...
If you flatten a shotgun barrel with a steamroller it most likely will not be possible to remount it onto the receiver -- in which case there's no problem. Like PT1911 said, might as well become a steel brick.
If you're talking about mashing the end flat, cutting it to below 18" and then putting it back on the gun, then no, that probably wouldn't meet the BATFE's approval, and could be a potentially very dangerous thing to have around anyway.
FWIW, owning a shotgun barrel that is less than 18" is not a crime nor is it federally regulated in any way. Owning that barrel and a shotgun it fits on certainly can be.
Please explain a bit more...
LHRGunslinger
Member
If you flattened the barrel wouldn't that kinda defeat the purpose of buying a working firearm?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
There are some grey areas in NFA legal issues regarding what constitutes possession of an unregistered NFA item. "Constructive possession" is a term often used to mean, for example, that you own a shotgun receiver and you own a <18" barrel that fits on it. Just because one isn't attached to the other, right at the moment, doesn't mean that you're in compliance with the (ATF's interpretation of the) NFA '34. You're not. You could slap them together pretty readily and have a functional, illegal, firearm.
(Some hold that if you own at least one legal-length barrel for each receiver you own as well as a short barrel -- and you NEVER assemble that short barrel onto the receiver(s) -- then you can't be convicted of an NFA violation because it is logically impossible to prove that you're using the illegal configuration. Talk about fine lines I never want to walk! Yikes.)
Having a shotgun barrel that's been substantively destroyed so that it is no longer able to fit readily onto that receiver is stretching that grey area pretty far out in your direction. If you can't put the thing together into a usable firearm, how can you be in constructive possession of an illegal weapon?
The extreme of this argument is always something along the lines of "I own a shotgun and a hacksaw, therefore I'm in possession of an unregistered short-barreled shotgun." That's obviously untrue. However, flattening the end of that barrel and then cutting it off leaving a 50% flattened muzzle which would still allow shot & wad to pass (though probably not safely) would obviously NOT be legal as it is still unarguably functional. In between those extremes is a dark and hazy zone I'd rather not explore.
(Some hold that if you own at least one legal-length barrel for each receiver you own as well as a short barrel -- and you NEVER assemble that short barrel onto the receiver(s) -- then you can't be convicted of an NFA violation because it is logically impossible to prove that you're using the illegal configuration. Talk about fine lines I never want to walk! Yikes.)
Having a shotgun barrel that's been substantively destroyed so that it is no longer able to fit readily onto that receiver is stretching that grey area pretty far out in your direction. If you can't put the thing together into a usable firearm, how can you be in constructive possession of an illegal weapon?
The extreme of this argument is always something along the lines of "I own a shotgun and a hacksaw, therefore I'm in possession of an unregistered short-barreled shotgun." That's obviously untrue. However, flattening the end of that barrel and then cutting it off leaving a 50% flattened muzzle which would still allow shot & wad to pass (though probably not safely) would obviously NOT be legal as it is still unarguably functional. In between those extremes is a dark and hazy zone I'd rather not explore.
Keep in mind that "Constructive Possession" does not mean that you possess something by constructing it. It means that your possession of something has to be "Constructed" legally. It is an attempt to get around people doing things like dropping contraband and claiming they don't possess it or disassembling their SBR and claiming that since the two halves aren't touching, it isn't an SBR.
For example, if you are the only human in a mile radius and are standing near a bag of crack, you are not in physical possession of it. However, since you are the most likely owner of it, your possession is "constructed" by the prosecution, since it is not likely anyone else's. You do have an additional avenue of defense: attack the framework of possession.
So, having a hacksaw and a shotgun is not possession of an unregistered SBS by "constructive possession."
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Certainly not. And thanks for the clarification -- I'd never conisdered the "constructive" term might be misunderstood to mean "assemble", but I see that it could be.
ArmedLiberal
Member
OK, OK, what if you took your legal shotgun and tied the barrel in a knot? Would it still be legal or would the ATF measure the distance from the receiver to the end of the barrel which is now much closer than it was?
Huh? Whataya think?
Huh? Whataya think?
nalioth
Member
I believe a key component to the legal definition of "firearm" is "expels a projectile".ArmedLiberal said:
Whataya think?
CoRoMo
Member
I actually thought this thread would have something to do with tweaking the pattern that a SG throws. Now that I've read the thread, I have no idea what this thread is about.
ArmedLiberal
Member
This thread is about the effects of shotgun mutilation on the application of ATF regulations regarding short barreled shotguns.
Claymore1500
Member
It's about fourteen posts too long, that's what it is!!!
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
Who want to know? someone from The City of Chicago's legal department trying to figure out a compromise to allow people to have any firearm they want in the city?
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Claymore got it. 
The op needs to let us know what's up..
Sounds to me like he wants a non-working replica of a sawed-off.
The op needs to let us know what's up..Sounds to me like he wants a non-working replica of a sawed-off.
Gord
Member
I'm guessing a wallhanger.
I'm also guessing BATFE isn't going to look kindly upon anybody screwing what used to be a barrel, shorter than minimum legal length, into what is otherwise a functional firearm. Disable the receiver and then do whatever you want.
I'm also guessing BATFE isn't going to look kindly upon anybody screwing what used to be a barrel, shorter than minimum legal length, into what is otherwise a functional firearm. Disable the receiver and then do whatever you want.
nalioth
Member
See my post above ☝desidog said:
A firearm's legal definition includes "expel a projectile".
If it doesn't "expel a projectile", it's not a legal firearm, no matter what the revenuers say.
nalioth
Member
IdunnoLee Roder said:
You tell me
medalguy
Member
I hate to tell you, but the definition of a firearm doesn't define it as being able to "expel a projectile":
A "firearm" is defined by 18 U.S.C. 92 I (a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
Flattened barrels have no effect on whether the item is regulated as a firearm.
A "firearm" is defined by 18 U.S.C. 92 I (a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
Flattened barrels have no effect on whether the item is regulated as a firearm.
nalioth
Member
So the OP flattens his barrel, cuts it down to 14" or whatever and gets rid of all his other extra sub-18" shotgun barrels (you know, to prevent "constructive possession" from rearing it's much-publicized-on-the-internet head).medalguy said:
The flattened barrel won't expel a projectile, and he'll have nothing to "readily convert" it to an illegal weapon with (installing a legal length barrel won't cause any issues).
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