Still confused about B of ATF&E Shotgun Barrel-length regs

[Oyeboten]

If one wishes to have an old Cartridge-accepting 12 Guage Shotgun, with Barrels shorter than 18 inches...for Breech-Loaders, is pre-1898 good enough? Or, does even an 1860s Break-Open need the Tax Stamp process?


While, shorter than 18 inch Barrel Muzzle Loading Shotguns are allowed with no special Regs, and, no Tax Stamp..?

 

[CoRoMo]

IIRC, the relics are not all reg'd. Even some full auto MGs are not NFA due to their collectability/antique status.

If one wishes to have a SBS, the stamp only costs $200.

 

[shotgunjoel]

Any "gun" made before 1898 is not a gun under the law, and the barrels can be any length.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not if it is a breechloader taking regularly available ammunition.

I am not a lawyer, but if you get to looking for loopholes or what you think are loopholes, you will need to find one.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Jim Watson,



I asked an earnest question regarding my desire to understand the law, and distinctions within the law.



If you think someone's wishing to understand the law, can only mean 'looking for loopholes', you really do need to re-think your premis.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't think I will rethink my premise. I assume that someone wishing to understand the law at the edge of what is legal is planning to operate there.

 

[Oyeboten]

So...you think I am intending to try and do something Legal? And, somehow it offends you.


...and that my expressing an interest to know the law, in order to know what is legal and what is not legal, and to be legal, is 'supicious'?


In your mind, there is something 'wrong' if someone wants to know what the law is, and, to be right with the law.



Okay...I get that.



If I had a roll of Toilet Paper handy, I'd offer it to you.



When I call the BofATFandE, I get people who can not answer my questions, and, or, I get bad/confused/uninformed/non-sequiter 'answers', and, or, different answers every time...while spending long waits on 'hold', and or getting disconneccted in transfers to other lines.


I would like to know what the Law is, and, what the Law allows.


Please stop insulting me with insinuations.

 

[Ron James]

Of course not, now if it was someone else posting, me, myself and I would jump to the conclusion that that they were looking for a loop hole to own a 12 gauge , sawed off shotgun with out a paper history.

 

[TEDDY]

sawed off

JIM is trying to stear you from getting in trouble.The ATF makes its own rules so if you stay away from questionable articles you wont get in trouble.

 

[Oyeboten]

I am asking what the rules are...as regard my original question -


If an 1880s, SxS, Break-Open Type, Cartridge type, 12 Gauge, exterior Hammer Shotgun, when having Barrels shorter than 18 inches, is required to have a Tax Stamp...then Okay.

If it does not, then that is also Okay.


I would like to know if it does, or, not.


I don't have a Horse-in-this-Race, I'd just like to know.


If in the learned opinion of so-far, no one, it is simply, sadly, too 'grey' an area for any clear determination, on the basis of the laws as they were written, and that, maybe, petitioning/applying for the Tax Stamp normally used for "Modern" Post-1899, less-than-18-inch-Barrel Shotguns, would be the most prudent recourse...then, Okay.

 

[deadin]

When I call the BofATFandE, I get people who can not answer my questions, and, or, I get bad/confused/uninformed/non-sequiter 'answers', and, or, different answers every time...while spending long waits on 'hold', and or getting disconneccted in transfers to other lines.

First rule when trying to get a "ruling" on a BATFE regulation.... Don't call.
Send a letter to the technology branch for a finding. Describe exactly what you are wanting, not generalities. i.e. "I have a chance to obtain a Remington double barrel 12 ga. shotgun manufactured in 1892 and it has 14 inch barrels. Does this gun require a tax stamp to be legal?"
One of the main contributing factors will be if the gun was manufactured with short barrels or someone "bubbaed" it that way.
This approach will require the BATFE to reply with a letter saying either yea or nay, not some wishy-washy answer that may change the next time you call.

I'm with Jim on just avoiding things that are iffy. If you really want a SBS, just pony up the $200 for the tax stamp and make one yourself.

 

[Oyeboten]

Thanks deadin



Good enough...



If I did wish to modify an older Shotgun to have, say, 16 inch Barrels, how do I apply for the Tax Stamp, do you know?

 

[General Geoff]

This approach will require the BATFE to reply with a letter saying either yea or nay, not some wishy-washy answer that may change the next time you call.

Yea or nay concrete answers have never stopped them from changing their minds on the exact same situation before. The only thing getting their answer in writing does, is give you plausible deniability of intent to break the law, should they indict you and bring it to trial.

 

[deadin]

The only thing getting their answer in writing does, is give you plausible deniability of intent to break the law

Which is a whole lot better than trying the "I was told on an internet gunboard that it was OK." defence.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know if it directly applies here, but the Curio and Relic list shows things like 14" barrelled "Trapper" lever action rifles and Handy Guns individually by make, model and serial number.

It APPEARS TO ME that if you had a shotgun you could document as having been made before 1899 AND that it was originally sold with barrels less than 18 inches, you could APPLY to have it considered a C&R. Nothing automatic about the process, no guarantee of it being approved, and no allowance for sawing off an old gun, it would have to be original.

 

[EOD Guy]

Any "gun" made before 1898 is not a gun under the law, and the barrels can be any length.

IIRC, the relics are not all reg'd. Even some full auto MGs are not NFA due to their collectability/antique status.

Neither statement above is true. The definitions for an antique firearm are different under the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act.

NFA Weapons are regulated, regardless of age, unless they have been removed from the NFA by the BATF or they use fixed ammuniton not available in normal trade.

Here are the two definitions:

The Gun Control Act definition in 27CFR§478.11

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica
(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.

The National Firearms Act definition in 27CFR§479.11

Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using
rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and
manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof,
whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also
any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for
which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is
not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[Corey]

If I did wish to modify an older Shotgun to have, say, 16 inch Barrels, how do I apply for the Tax Stamp, do you know?

ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf

A two page form with another 2 pages of instructions, read carefully. If you live in a state that allows it, follow the instructions, and you are not a prohibited person they will approve it.

 

[CoRoMo]

Originally Posted by CoRoMo
IIRC, the relics are not all reg'd. Even some full auto MGs are not NFA due to their collectability/antique status.

Posted by EOD Guy
Neither statement above is true.

Um... I think I'm in fact, correct.

FACT: Not all relics are regulated like a modern firearm is.

Your own post agrees with this factual statement of mine.​

FACT: Even some full auto MGs are not NFA and fall into the antique realm.

Your own post agrees with this factual statement of mine.​

 

[gyvel]

Even some full auto MGs are not NFA due to their collectability/antique status.

Incorrect.

Machine guns manufactured before 1899 are still considered NFA weapons. The "list" shows Colt 1895 machine guns, "any calibre" as NFA weapons.

 

[franconialocal]

DISCLAMER: This is New Hampshire's STATE LAW and it refers to CONFLICTS WITH FEDERAL LAW at the end of the RSA.....so keep checking on the federal end of things. The point of my post is to show how some states (all will be different) may classify what an "antique" is (e.g. by its firing system, history, etc.) I'm sure the Fed language is much easier to understand neener

TITLE XII
PUBLIC SAFETY AND WELFARE
CHAPTER 159
PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS
Section 159:1
159:1 Definition. – Pistol or revolver, as used herein, means any firearm with barrel less than 16 inches in length. It does not include antique pistols, gun canes, or revolvers. An antique pistol, gun cane, or revolver, for the purposes of this chapter, means any pistol, gun cane, or revolver utilizing an early type of ignition, including, but not limited to, flintlocks, wheel locks, matchlocks, percussions and pin-fire, but no pistol, gun cane, or revolver which utilizes readily available center fire or rim-fire cartridges which are in common, current use shall be deemed to be an antique pistol, gun cane, or revolver. Nothing in this section shall prevent antique pistols, gun canes, or revolvers from being owned or transferred by museums, antique or arms collectors, or licensed gun dealers at auctions, gun shows, or private premises provided such ownership or transfer does not conflict with federal statutes.
Source. 1923, 118:1. PL 149:1. RL 179:1. RSA 159:1. 1967, 220:1. 1992, 273:1, eff. July 17, 1992.

Very little on the books about rifles and shotguns.....basically these are covered under fish and game laws regarding hunting and discharge of firearms.

 

[Corey]

FACT: Even some full auto MGs are not NFA and fall into the antique realm.

Incorrect. I think the confusion is because there are machine guns on the ATF Curio and Relic list. These are still machine guns and are still subject to all NFA regulations. What can be done is that if you have a C & R license you can purchase a C & R machine gun from a dealer or individual in another state and have it shipped directly to you. You still have to get an approved Form 4 before the machine gun is shipped. Also, a couple of states only allow private citizens to own machine guns that are on the C & R list.

There have been a few types of NFA weapons that are NOT machine guns that have been exempted from NFA requirements because of their age and historical value and the fact that they are unlikely to ever be used.

Relevent quoted from ATF's NFA Handbook:

10.1.3 NFA firearms classified as curios or relics. NFA firearms may be classified as curios or relics
under the same requirements discussed in Section 10.1.1. NFA firearms classified as curios or relics are
still subject to the provisions of the NFA.

10.1.4 The Firearms Curios or Relics List (ATF P 5300.11). This publication contains a listing of
those firearms that have been officially classified as curios or relics. The list contains the following
sections:
1. Ammunition classified as curios or relics prior to the 1986 amendments of the GCA.
2. Firearms classified as curios or relics subject to the provisions of the GCA.
3. Weapons removed from the NFA as collector’s items which are determined to be curios or
relics subject to the provisions of the GCA.
4. Weapons removed from the NFA as collector’s items which are antiques not subject to the
provisions of the GCA.
5. NFA weapons classified as curios or relics subject to the provisions of the GCA and NFA.

 

[highorder]

Also, a couple of states only allow private citizens to own machine guns that are on the C & R list.

I believe Michigan is one of those states. Still no suppressors or SBR's for Michiganders.

 

[Zoogster]

The Gun Control Act definition in 27CFR§478.11

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica
(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.

The bolded part stands alone, and is not modified by any following part of the paragraph. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898.
Your confusion comes from '(1)' and '(2)' which modify 'any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a)'. Notice the underlined part, which clearly shows the rest of the paragraph is defining 'if such replica'.
Hence it is replicas of such firearms that must not be center fire, or rimfire, or use ammunition not readily available through regular trade, to meet the definition of 'antique'.
An actual firearm made before 1898 is not a replica.

Also, the way parenthesis work, what is in them could be omitted without destroying the meaning of the statement. "(including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system)". So it would only be an addition. It is 'including' all of those ignition types listed in addition, but not excluding 'Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898' which is not one of those types.



Now this section though is different:

The National Firearms Act definition in 27CFR§479.11

Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and
manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof,
whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also
any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for
which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is
not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

In this section of law the requirement is both 'Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition' 'AND' 'manufactured in or before 1898'.
The clear meaning of 'and' absent other punctuation or proceeding to deal with another topic as is used in this section makes both requirements necessary to meet the definition of 'antique'.
It then goes on to say all firearms 'matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898' are also included.



So clearly the definitions under 27CFR§479.11 and 27CFR§478.11 are different, even though they may appear very similar out of legal context.

A firearm can become an antique under one without qualifying as an antique under the other. The primary difference is 27CFR§478.11 makes all firearms made before 1898 antiques, period.
While 27CFR§479.11 requires those made before or during 1898 either not be center fire or rim fire, or have ammunition not available through regular trade (which clearly in the day of the internet is a big ATF discretion area as someone somewhere will make anything.)

 

[CoRoMo]

Even some full auto MGs are not NFA due to their collectability/antique status.

Incorrect.

I figured this would be challenged, so I'm trying to find a reference to a full auto gun that was auctioned on gunbroker, somewhat recently. It was exempt, and there was a discussion about it here, whenever that was. Anyway, in the event I never find that info, I concede the point.

EDIT:
I think Corey's post is more in line with what I'm referring to.

 

[deadin]

I think some of the confusion here is that the basic definition of what is a "firearm" is very different between the GCA and NFA. NFA only addresses regulated weapons and its wording refers to them as "firearms". Here is the NFA definition of what is a "firearm".

(a) Firearm. The term 'firearm' means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of
less than 18 inches in length; (2) a
weapon made from a shotgun if such
weapon as modified has an overall length
of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels
of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a
rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than
16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made
from a rifle if such weapon as modified
has an overall length of less than 26
inches or a barrel or barrels of less than
16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon,
as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in
section 921 of title 18, United States
Code); and (8) a destructive device. The
term 'firearm' shall not include an antique
firearm or any device (other than a machinegun
or destructive device) which,
although designed as a weapon, the Secretary
finds by reason of the date of its
manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's
item and is not likely to be used as a
weapon.