Flattened primers before shooting?

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sbwaters

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Noticed a friend’s 9MM reloads the other day. The primers were flattened before being fired.

When I asked, he said he wanted to be sure they were firmly seated.

I know that flattened primers afterwards are a sign of too much pressure. What do you think of seating primers so hard they flatten before use?

I think it would mask high pressure after firing.
 
Flattened primers in a handgun are not really a sign of anything other than the primer went off. Using them as a sign of high pressure is moot.

While your friend might be a tad over jealous with his priming tool, safer to error on the side of too much than not enough when it comes to seating primers.
 
Primers flattened while loading would be down inside the pocket.
Primers flattened from firing would be flush with the open end of the pocket.

That being said, I think that primers flattened during seating would indicate a bit too much enthusiasm during the process.
 
By the time you see flattened primers from too much pressure, you're waaay over pressure.

Primers need to be fully seated to set the anvil into the primer pellet, and this normally means below flush. I seat all my primers .004" below flush with the base of the case.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Flattened primers are a poor indicator of over pressure...
Better signs are with extraction and ejection.
Why? It's because the case expands more.
 
I agree with the above. Another thought is what brand primers is he using? Some, I don't remember which, have a squarer profile at the edges. Maybe thats what your seeing. You really have to use a lot of pressure to flatten them when inserting them. Thats why I use a Lee hand primer. Plus you can prime all your cases while watching TV.
 
Primers flattened while loading would be down inside the pocket.
Primers flattened from firing would be flush with the open end of the pocket.

That being said, I think that primers flattened during seating would indicate a bit too much enthusiasm during the process.

Or someone trying to force primers in military brass they didn't prep right.
 
I have had some very flattened primers when seating primers in some military cases; it never hurt anything.

It is true that in low pressure cartridges like those used in handguns, too high pressure will occur before any appreciable change in handloads. In high pressure rifle loads you CAN judge pressure by primer appearance; I've done it for decades now.
 
Noticed a friend’s 9MM reloads the other day. The primers were flattened before being fired.

When I asked, he said he wanted to be sure they were firmly seated.

I know that flattened primers afterwards are a sign of too much pressure. What do you think of seating primers so hard they flatten before use?

I think it would mask high pressure after firing.
I would be more concerned of the possibility of crushing the primer anvil to fast into the primer solution.
 
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/reloading-beginners/primer-seating-depth

PRIMER SEATING DEPTH
Primer seating depth – how far the primer is inserted into the shell case – is carefully controlled in factory ammunition. You also need to be aware of primer seating depth when reloading. Seating the primer too deep below flush can damage the internal components, leading to misfires and inconsistent ignition. Seating the primer too high (above flush) can cause the cylinder to not rotate in revolvers, and can cause problems when the bolt slams home in semi-autos. Seating above flush can also result in misfires.

Unless you are reloading on a progressive machine (each pull of the handle yields a loaded cartridge), the primer seating depth is controlled by feel as the primer is inserted. This is especially true if you are using a handheld priming tool. The primer seating depth is best checked with your finger tip. Sliding the index finger across the bottom of the primed shell case will quickly determine if the primer is above or below flush.

The ideal seating depth is just below flush. As you gain experience in loading, the feel to accomplish this will become familiar. It is best to use your finger to test every primed shell case. If the primer is above flush it can be run through the seating operation again to push it below flush.


And see:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
http://www.stevespages.com/primermyths.html
 
As mentioned in above posts the possibility exists of crushing the primer wafer and therefore making the round inert. I will only use so much pressure to seat a primer so as not to crush it but at the same time still enough pressure to put it below the case head by at least .003". One is usually able to learn this subjective "feel" by reloading experience IMHO. FWIW I have not had a primer fail to ignite as designed for 30+ years. So far, that is---:thumbup:
 
Agree that he's going to damage, break, crush the priming mix and will have a primer failure to ignite and a dud round in the future.
 
Or someone trying to force primers in military brass they didn't prep right.
Yeah that could be it. Seating a primer should be a smooth feeling with it stoping at the bottom of the pocket. A military case with the crimp not properly removed is more of a pushing hard and suddenly having the primer go in with a crunch feeling. The primer will usually look deformed. When I first used some improper reamed mil cases I actually had a small 1/2 moon sliver of primer cup sheared off. That was 40 years ago but they all went bang.
 
I've had some pretty flattened primers at times after seating them but in 50 years of reloading have never had a primer I seated fail for that reason. In one unmodified factory case, the primer pocket was too deep for the firing pin to hit the primer adequately and in some handgun loads, the hammer didn't have enough ooomph to touch of a rifle primer but the reason was NEVER because a primer was too flattened from seating it.

I've had one primer go off when seating it and that was decades ago when using a Lee Loader.
 
Agree that he's going to damage, break, crush the priming mix and will have a primer failure to ignite and a dud round in the future.

Altho it's not been quite 50 years, I'm like Grumulkin.......

I've had some pretty flattened primers at times after seating them but in 50 years of reloading have never had a primer I seated fail for that reason.

Without seeing the so called "flattened primers" mentioned in the OP, I'd be hard pressed to say one way or the other as if they are indeed seated so deep as to crush them, and/or make therm inert.
 
Some primers like S+B have less radius on the edges and look more "flat" to begin with.
I have never had an issue with seating them to deep but I think that would depend on you priming tool/attachment.
With my Lee hand primer I don't know if it is possible to seat one to deep.
 
Primers need to be seated until the anvil legs touch the bottom of the primer pocket (Minimum), and then a little more so the cup pushes down around the legs, up until it hits the bottom of the primer pocket (Maximum).

If seated to little (Anvil legs not touching the bottom of the primer pocket), the firing pin has to seat it fully and then have enough energy left over to crush the priming compound between the cup and the anvil. Sometimes it does not, these are the ones that so often fire on the second try. The first try seats them fully, the second try fires them.

bds has some great primer pics here somewhere that shows the cup and anvil and how they are positioned with each other prior to seating. The anvil legs are sticking out of the cup just a little bit.

After fully seating the anvil's legs and the primer cup is hard against the bottom of the pocket, it takes a great deal of pressure at this point to damage the primer so much it fails.

It is fairly easy to seat a primer too soft, not fully seating it, so that it misfires, but difficult to seat them so hard it damages them to the point of not firing. This statement is based on my decades of seating primers with various tools. I have never had one fail from being seated to hard/deep. Not saying that with some primer tools and some gorilla grips it can't be done, but it is 100/1000 times less likely to happen than seating one too shallow/soft.

We have threads here all the time when failures to fire end up being primers seated too softly/shallow. I can't remember one where it turned out someone managed to crush a primer into submission. I would suggest to all to try it. Some priming systems simply cannot do it for mechanical reasons. Some might have enough travel to do it if you have the strength, That cup surrounded by the brass primer pocket is tough to crush. Very tough.
 
Just tried on 5 different pieces of 9mm brass, as hard as I could, primers look fine. (will test the loaded rounds to verify)

I will note with the Lee tool you can sort of put them in sideways in which case you can crush/mangle them.
I have tested the above just to make sure it is possible. (and every now and then I repeat the test just to make sure it's still possible).:)
 
Personally, I don't measure "below flush" on any of my primed cases. I seat the primer all the way to the bottom of the pocket, and then a little extra pressure. I had some Winchester primers that only gave me 75% reliability in a striker fired 9mm. Only the one gun. The gun worked 100% with other primers (CCI, Wolf). Winchester primers worked in my other 9mms 100%. I read about "preloading" or "sensitizing" the primers so I seated the primers, added a bit of extra pressure to "preload" and then I got 100% reliability. Preloading had no ill affects on any of my other guns so I continue to seat all Winchester primers with a preload...

Before anyone makes suggestions, the gun was clean (completely disassembled bol cleaned channel and polished pin), had good primer strikes, worked 100% with other primers, Winchester SP primers worked fine in all my other guns (2, 9mm. 3, 38 Special. 1, 357 Mag.).
 
Personally, I don't measure "below flush" on any of my primed cases. I seat the primer all the way to the bottom of the pocket, and then a little extra pressure.
Pretty much. If your priming toll can go this far, it's the way to go. If it can't, as long as it seats them deep enough you are good to go. If it doesn't seat them deep enough something needs to be adjusted or fixed. Longer stem for instance. Maybe only .002/.005 longer, but longer.
 
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