Flaws with the M-14/M-1A

[444]

Wise Man

"Bottom line: the M1A is a Great Rifle. It's not the Perfect Rifle."

12" barrel in 5.56 is cutting it pretty fine. I personally think a 16" barrel would be closer to ideal.
One thing to keep in mind, the reason the 5.56 is velocity dependant is because of the choice of bullets. Much easier to fragment bullets are readily available, the military just won't use them. The problem of course is that if you get too fangible of a bullet, it won't penetrate any kind of cover or armor.

 

[chickenfried]

One thing I hate on my M1A is not being able to just insert the magazine straight into the rifle. Having to do that 25 degree front end first thing drives me. But I'll get used to it, I hope.

 

[kotengu]

"receiver required way more work than other rifles of its day and was as such uneconomical to produce for comparable results"

Is it really any more difficult than the FAL receiver? Both are machining-intensive, yet the FAL was adopted in 90+ countries and now we can buy receivers for $200 - $500 new. What's an M1A receiver cost?

 

[Nightcrawler]

The problem of course is that if you get too fangible of a bullet, it won't penetrate any kind of cover or armor.

I would assume this is already a problem in a bullet that apparently can't penetrate something soft and squishy like a human being and not break apart. I've heard they've been testing heavier 5.56mm bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan, presumably to get better downrange energy and possibly to get better penetration of cover.

Of course, I think the fragmentation of 5.56mm FMJ rounds has been overrated, to the point where people are using it for home defense becaue they think it won't go through a few layers of drywall, plywood, and sheetrock. Good thing this isn't true, as all our enemies would have to do would be to start wearing easily, cheaply constructed plywood and drywall armor vests and it'd be all over.

(Anybody imagine a humvee plated with sheetrock to give it small arms protection? LOL)

 

[444]

Well we are getting far off subject here, but you are making a false assumption. The fragmentation of military 5.56 hasn't been over-rated, it has been extensively tested. Military 5.56 does infact tumble and fragment but this does not mean that it does not penetrate also. In fact, you can defeat body armor in all but the largest threat ratings, but after penetrating, the bullet should tumble and fragment. Be that as it may, the police departments that I have heard about do not carry military ball ammo. Federal HP is popular as is Hornady TAP.

I posted this on another thread, but this is an important concept. Have you ever considered how difficult it is to design a bullet for military use ? As civilians we can pick and choose not only bullets, but calibers and weapons. We can tailor our arms to our intended target. For example in 5.56 we can shoot highly frangible varmint bullets such as the Hornady V-Max that will completely fragment inside a small animal like a groundhog. Or, we can shoot softpoints, hollowpoints, armor piercing, match bullets, weights ranging from 45 grains up to 80 or more grains and it all that isn't enough we can open the safe and grab the .22-250 or the .243 or whatever. The soldier is limited to one weapon and a couple loads, which are expected to do everything. They are expected defeat body armor, penetrate light armored vehicles, cut through cover, tumble and fragment in flesh, and exhibit accuracy out to the effective range of the weapon; all in one bullet. The caliber is expected to be light and easy to carry, it is expected to be controllable on full auto, and (according to the internet commandos) it is expected to shoot with laser like precision out to 600, 800, or even 1000 yards. Note that there are two polor opposites at work here. You want maximum penetration and you want fragmentation. And you want all this to happen at velocities ranging from muzzle velocity to the velocity at 800 yards and from barrel lengths from 14.5" to 20" in all temperatures, at all altitudes. And if it doesn't do all that and more, the guys on the internet (that will never have to use it) will tear it apart and label it as ineffective. That is a tall order to fill for a bullet.

Just a few observations, that I think are left out of a lot of internet discussions because the truth doesn't support the argument being made. Not directed at anyone in particular. YMMV. No one under 21 permitted unless accompnied by and adult..................................

 

[45R]

The M14 may have its flaws....but wasnt this tread posted as

"We here all the time about the flaws of the M-16, Ak-47, etc, but rarely do we here about the M-14. I doubt it could be perfect. Could somebody list the flaws of the M-14/M-1A type rifles? Thank you."


Not


"Compare and contrast the M14 to the current M4/M16 varients."


Personally I like my M1A

 

[Atlas Shrug]

Slight corrections on Mogadishu, Somalia use.

Only Randy Shughart used an M14, and it was NOT an M21 sniper version. Gary Gordon, as most Deltas seem to, used an M16 variation.

For some reason, they say "sniper" nowadays instead of "rifleman" as was done in the past. I guess that anyone taking deliberate aim at a single target is now considered a sniper. So much for the progress of our language use......

Everyone should read the book _Blackhawk Down_ several times. THEN buy the DVD of the movie. It should be required for anyone needing preparation for urban combat. It's good military and political history as well.

My $0.02.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Ah, yes, did not mean to hijack the thread.

In any case, the fact that an M14, as issued, is long for indoor use isn't really an inherent flaw of the design, as it can be made shorter if necessary (Ala M4 vs M16...you can't swap uppers on the M14, but then, I've never once been issued my M16 and then have been given an M4 upper so I can swap before clearing a house...)

 

[444]

I don't really thing this was all that far off topic. We were bascially comparing the two wepons in terms of length and what the current day GIs serving in combat have said they want.
The military ammo discussion is just as valid no matter what caliber we are discussing. I was recently told a story by a Gunsite instructor about his experience with the M14 while serving in the Marine Corp in Vietnam. The story centered around the fact that she shot several guys at close range and they kept getting back up. The point I believe is that the FMJ military ball round just punched a clean hole through them. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, military ammo has to be a jack of all trades and as a result doesn't really work great at any one of those tasks. This isn't a knock on the weapon itself, but instead on the ammo issued with it.

 

[Carnitas]

Bottom line the M1A/M14 is a proven battlefield weapon. Its problems are known and surmountable. Its utility is less in situations where light weight and close quarters are important considerations. Its utility is greater where aimed fire, distance, wind, and penetration are important.

Personally I think an individual rifleman is better served by the M1A than an AR, or FAL. For those working in groups the AR and FAL may be more appropriate.

 

[kotengu]

I am offended that you put the FAL (great, godly weapon) in a class with the AR (lowly mousegun)

Seriously though - I don't see all that many differences between the FAL and the M14, other than the M14 seems to be more suited to match shooting (more refined sights) while the FAL seems more suited to the battlefield (more "soldier proof" sights, easier to field strip/maintain).

The ergonomics of the FAL suit me much better than those of the M14, but that's pretty subjective.

Can you clarify?

 

[45R]

In regards to operating the op rod.

Wouldnt one be more well served pushing the release on the left side vs reaching over to use the op rod.....or is pushing the bolt lock to release the bolt a bad thing.......

 

[Badger Arms]

What release? In a rapid reload on an AK-47, M-1A, or SKS, I always rotate the rifle 90 degrees to the left, pull back the slide with my the palm of my left hand, and let it fly home as I bring the rifle back on target, ready to fire. Before a match, I practice the manual of arms with whatever rifle I'm using (DCM AR-15 or M-1 Garand mostly) to get it down. Shot a match with the HK-91 once. That had to be the most difficult manual of arms I'd ever practiced, especially on slow-fire rounds.

Oh, what's wrong wht the M-14? I agree with the fact that it's a 30's design in a 50's execution with 20's technology and refinement that would only please a Frenchman. Don't confuse the M-14 (a sound battle rifle for the 40's) with the M-21 (a refined sniper rifle for the 50's).

Here's what you do to improve the M-14. First, choose a winner next time. The FAL and AR-10 were better weapons, and the H&K G-3 was at least its equal. I have no beef with the M-14. It was the fourth best rifle in that caliber available at the time of its adoption. Fourth place isn't so bad. We're all winners after all! In it's day, I would have been more than satisfied to go to war with any of the big four.

At a certain point in its development, the Army decided to fix the design and produce the M-14 in spite of the fact that bugs still existed. Had the development continued from WWII throuh its adoption (which did not happen), then the M-14 would have served itself much better.

I still pine for the 276 Pederson though. Man, that was a round that would have stuck.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

*shrug* the m-14 fits my concept of a good battle rifle inasmich as it has a better trigger and sights than any of those other three, doesn't need a cleaning rod to clear stuck cases, and is left hand friendly. (all of the ar-10s i've seen seem to be less than reliable with military surplus ammunition, as they have light hammers.

Full auto controllability is not a factor for me, and I'm reasinably certain that the m-14's rear sight can take more of a whack than the rear on an AK or FAL, since both of those aren't protected by ears of any kind.

 

[Kestrel]

Does anyone know if the FAL is as sensitive to ammo as the M1A? Is it harmful/damaging to fire commercial hunting ammo in the FAL?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Carnitas]

I am offended that you put the FAL (great, godly weapon) in a class with the AR (lowly mousegun)

Not in the same class necessarily, but I'll try to explain.

Imagine a continum of war rifles of the 20th century based on a) how the design facilitates the enguagement of the enemy with aimed fire at any distance the rifleman can identlfy a target, and b) how well the rifle permits a skilled marks man to enguage the enemy as described above.

Looking at that continum you'd find on one end, bolt rifles like the springfield and mauser (long legged cartridges fired out of single shot weapons with good triggers, etc). At the other end of the spectrum you'd have things like the AK, SKS, etc (bad triggers, bad sights, relatively short range cartridges, banana mags, etc). WRT to the M14/FAL comparison the M14 is a little more of a riflemans rifle than the FAL. Its not a big difference. A little better sights, a little better trigger. perhaps a little more accurate.

As long as I'm classifying I'd put the G3 a little lower than the fal (cause of the trigger), and the AR lower than that (mouse gun cartridge). I'd put the garand a little higher than the M14 (smaller ammo supply, slightly longer cartridge).

Does that make sense?

 

[kotengu]

"Is it harmful/damaging to fire commercial hunting ammo in the FAL?"

Not a bit - I do it all the time. You can also shoot the "heavy" loads (190gr bullets - long range match shooting) that the M14 guys either shy away from and/or bust up their guns using. Simply turn down (or off) the gas.

As long as we're talking - I shoot 110gr varmint bullets through my FAL all the time, too - but we're getting a little of the subject here.

"What's wrong with the M14?"

- charging handle on the wrong side
- maintenence intensive (either more difficult to field maintain, or harder to keep in match condition, depending on what you're doing)
- no pistol grip
- ammo sensitive

Oh wait - I think I'm biased a little........

 

[7.62mm]

For an excellent discussion of MBR (Main Battle Rifle) choices, get "Boston's Gun Bible" by "Boston T. Party". I think Paladin Press has copies as does his web site: www.javelinpress.com

He spends ten chapters talking about the various MBRs available to US shooters today. Makes a lot of sense and is an interesting read. Yes, he talks about, and rates, the M-14 AND AR-15 at length. In the end, his book is a guide for finding out what is best for you. His opinion after much testing: M-14. Read the book to find out why.

I competed with M-1s and M1-As for years. Grand rifles. Prefer the M-14. Difficult to shoot really well, harder to master. Not as nearly as easy to shoot well as the AR-15. Modern NRA Highpower Rifle scores attest to that. However, it hits hard! I found that the M-14 doesn't have many vices. Of course, one can become used to anything, I suppose.

My choice for a SHTF MBR? M-14 or it's civilian equivalent. I like the hitting power and, living in an Urban to rural environment, I have no illusions about having to carry it around for months in the field. Age, fitness, disposition, health, and woods knowledge, preclude that.

SO, it will be fairly close quarters with BGs behind cover or on board vehicles. I think the 7.62 NATO will generally penetrate better in that environment. Even .308 Win. hunting bullets will get into the passenger cabin through doors. I have my doubts about 5.56mm doing the same on a consistent basis.

Primarily, I am used to it, can operate and field strip it in the dark, know its quirks, and "feel" more comfortable with it.

I found that the rifles I shot, both rack grade and match, were not that fussy about ammo. Yes, the match rifles could shoot sub-MOA 5 shot groups and were picky about the NATO ball, but the functioned well and met service accuracy standards in any event. NO, they were not 1,000 yard rifles with NATO ball. No rifle would be.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but this my $0.02.

 

[BigG]

I like the M14/M1A and the M1 Rifle but I prefer to use a 20" AR15 by Colt. Just the ammo and magazines for the M1A are wa-ay bigger and heavier than the Colt. JMHO.

Badger pretty much summed up the M14/G3/FAL/AR10 (best in my view). Disagree with his take on the bolt release on M1A. I use mine. Like AR15 same-same

 

[Grump]

Testing?

Am I the only person here who has tested the lengendary fiddle-fuss gas system on the FAL series?

IT SUCKS! The M14 system fired downloaded ammo and cycled reliably after the fully-"closed" vent on the FAL wouldn't even eject the fired cases, which was AFTER it stopped feeding them.

So, design defects in the M14 system?

Bolt catch should be a release like the M16 system. It can be done, and I'd bet there's an aftermarket for them if priced $20 or less.

I agree on the op rod release cutout. It's betrayed me only once, but that one really tied up the rifle after I fired the shot! But not nearly as badly as a bad mag in an M16 series will tie up the gun when the round flies up into the channel in the underside of the charging handle, and the bolt lugs go *forward* of the case head. I've seen that one three times. The op rod problem could be solved with two or three parts and all the disadvantages that entails--sort of a takedown plunger that must be depressed before the op rod will disengage at the cutout...or maybe one part peened in--a lever...

As far as the charging handle "defect" goes, I wouldn't call it a defect. But it would be improved if we added an upright knob like the Galil-style AKs to both lefties and righties could charge the thing with either hand. Not workable for scope-bearing rifles, but the "reach-over" technique still would provide a reasonable substitute for those units.

Perhaps the lack of a firing pin retraction spring to provide redundancy over the mechanical retraction at the firing pin tail/receiver bridge interface. That single part could prevent disaster for broken firing pin tail situations--but how common are they?


That's it. Until I see some MTBF statistics for both proving ground trials and after-action combat reports, I will suspend judgment on whether the M14 is more or less reliable in use than other rifles. IME, the only way to choke one is to leave powder out of the ammo, or smash the ammo so it won't chamber.

It even extracts my broken cases just fine! The FAL's fixed ejector couldn't handle even that--the 5/8-long stub just rattled around in front of the bolt and jammed it on the forward stroke.

 

[Kaylee]

Bolt catch should be a release like the M16 system. It can be done, and I'd bet there's an aftermarket for them if priced $20 or less.

gah. okay, busted.
I've been working on it. submitted patent paperwork some time ago, got the tooling up, just had a hard time lining up capital for the first run. Inital test run was 01 tool steel, too hard for the application... just too hard for final machining without EDM. Second run in 4150 or so should be coming out in a couple months.

I've already been speaking with Brownells and Midway, I'll be sending them "off the line" versions for T&E next week. USN is evaluating one as we speak.

Prototypes are already on several units. Retail will be at or around 19.95, per advice of my manufacturing guy, barring any more production surprises.

-K

PS .. anyone wants one NOW, I have a few blanks (I think like 5 or 6) from the 01 tool steel run left. They'll need to be drilled out to fit on the rifle, and break drill bits left and right, so the cost is higher, but I could get a price for you if you're interested.

 

[Grump]

Kaylee, since we're talking a true patent and not mere copyright, you're safe with these ideas floating around a board you inhabit.

Congrats on a good idea! You deserve the fruits of your labors. I hope the design is fairly "bump"-resistant, like the little fence around the mag release button on the AR system. If not, I claim no right to development of such as product improvement.

 

[EWTHeckman]

I'm seriously considering buying a Springfield M25 as soon as I can scrape together the cash. Since the M25 is based on the M1A, how many of these issues still apply? In other words, does the M25 resolve any of these issues? Are there any issues unique to the M25?

Thanks.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Cool Kaylee.
I know you have bucks and time in it.
Hope you not only recoup but go well into the black on it.

Sam

 

[Grump]

Whattheheckman:

I don't believe that the M25 addresses any of these issues. Could be wrong... But it's still a great rifle.