Flaws with the M-14/M-1A

[twoblink]

As a leftie, I think the charging handle is on the correct side

Also, Garands present a "Garand Thumb" problem to lefties that the M14 doesn't.

It's too long, and you've basically got 1 choice in stock..

That said, I still like it better than the M16 design..

 

[VG]

Slight corrections on Mogadishu, Somalia use.

Only Randy Shughart used an M14, and it was NOT an M21 sniper version. Gary Gordon, as most Deltas seem to, used an M16 variation.

For some reason, they say "sniper" nowadays instead of "rifleman" as was done in the past. I guess that anyone taking deliberate aim at a single target is now considered a sniper. So much for the progress of our language use......

Everyone should read the book _Blackhawk Down_ several times. THEN buy the DVD of the movie. It should be required for anyone needing preparation for urban combat. It's good military and political history as well.

True enough, I wanted to include both citations, though. I spend some time on and support www.BHD93.com. There are a lot of guys there who participated in the raid. None of them could or would tell me what exactly the configuration of his rifle was.

If you read "In the Company of Heroes" by CWO Mike Durand, he talks about what it was like being on the ground. He started out with an MP5. When it was empty he was give one of the M16's or M4's from the crew, which he found more reassuring. Amazing men, all.

RLTW

 

[BDM]

I am a die hard AR guy and my primary rifle is a preban bushy carbine..But I own an M1a also.No rifle fills the bill for every need thats why I have a few different choices..in any event SEALS carry it individually and for me the only draw backs are weight and amount of ammo that can be carried and the gas system takes less of a beating than the garand.In my collection I have an M1a,AK 2 AR carbines and for pistols an M9 baretta and 3 1911s 1 mossber590 shotgun all issue except the AK unless its for spec ops,all major calibers and spare parts a plenty,Im sure Ill be dust before any of these weapon systems are out of use or service.

 

[EWTHeckman]

Bolt catch should be a release like the M16 system.

Can you explain what this issue is in more detail? I haven't examined or handled an M1A or M1 Garand before, so pictures would be a help.

Thanks.

 

[Kaylee]

EWTHeckman--

you have to remember that the M14 as a descendant of the M1 comes from the days of top-loading bolt action rifles. The assumption of the day was that you'ld be shoving your reloads in the top with your right hand. while keeping your left hand on the forearm of the rifle.

Modern usage is predicated on detachable box magazines, which are typically removed by the left hand (or drop free) and are replaced by the left hand.

Thus, a user trained in more modern techniques will find himself swapping hands back and forth or twisting the rifle around to remove the old mag, insert the new one, and release the bolt on the fresh mag.

In contrast, an M-16 style bolt release allows the user to maintain a firing grip with the right hand throughout the process. remove old mag with left hand, rock in new mag, slap the release, and you're back in the game without so much as breaking your cheek weld.

original M14 bolt release on the left, Kaylee modified M16-style bolt release prototype on the right*:

answer your question?

-K

* the production version of the "Kaylee's Great Duh" is slightly different -- it follows the original profile on the bottom of the release, then angles out a touch at the top paddle. I found it gives better leverage on closing the bolt. It's also a might thicker, which makes it easier on the fingers when locking the bolt open. HOWEVER... the M14 mag doesn't like it when you use this thing on an empty magazine -- batters the follower too much. It'll work, just not healthy for the follower. But, since if you're using this thing, it's on a reloaded mag, the follower is 20 (10 for you CA folks I guess) rounds down the stack and wont be harmed.

 

[Badger Arms]

If it's for a quick magazine release, great. I'd imagine people will still use it for a bolt release with a full magazine.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

huh.


on heavy detachable magazine rifles, i use my strong hand (left) to remove and replace the magazine. no hand switching.



on light detachable magazine rifles, i use my weak hand. also no hand switching.

 

[EWTHeckman]

answer your question?

Mostly. Sorry, but I'm going to get real basic here. Like I said. The details of the M1 are new to me.

I assume the bolt automatically locks back like most semi-auto pistol slides do. Correct?

Then the standard design assumes that you're supposed to pull back on the charging handle then release it after reloading? I also assume that what you're making is basically a reshaped bolt catch that can work either way.

For example, with my Beretta, I can just hit the slide release after slapping in a new mag, or I could yank the slide back and release it to accomplish the same thing.

Do I have it right?

 

[BigG]

The M1A has a bolt release that is in about the same place as an M16, however it operates slightly different, i.e., it does not have a large spatulate appendage to quickly hit and release the bolt. You have to push up the little nub, more or less. It is easy to operate for me but competition shooters may want an edge. That's all I can think of because it seems like once you are used to it it is about as quick and easy. YMMV

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Kaylee, nice product you have there, the M14 has been a favorite of mine for years. I hate to tell you this but I have something like what you are producing on one of my M1A's, got it years ago from Brownelles. Always wanted another one but couldn't remember who made it and, unfortunately, I have long since gotten rid of the old Brownelles catalogs. Put me down for one when they are ready to ship. Mine seems longer than what you show but sits closer to the receiver and I will admit it cost me about twice what you are asking.

Many people I know have made complaint about the M1A/M14, usually the lack of a pistol grip and night sights, being overly long and heavy, etc. I have an E2 type stock and tritium sight on mine and the above mentioned bolt release and I see little else out there that surpasses what I have. It may not be the best tool for every job but it does more well than anything else I have used.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

By the way, everything I have seen shows Shugart and Gordon both using the AR system in Somalia. Anyone have anything that shows otherwise? I know one of them professed a preference for the 7.62 M14 but as I understand it both used the 5.56mm AR platform that day.

 

[JohnKSa]

The M14 system fired downloaded ammo and cycled reliably after the fully-"closed" vent on the FAL wouldn't even eject the fired cases, which was AFTER it stopped feeding them.

Which means that full-powered or hot ammo is REALLY beating the crap out of the M14 while the FAL gas system can be turned down to minimize the pounding on the rifle.

The adjustable gas system isn't about dealing with weak ammo. You can always hand cycle the rifle if need be. It's about being able to shoot hotter ammo safely and without damage/extra wear and tear to the rifle.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

you can get an adjustable gas system doohicky from mcann, though.

 

[Grump]

Okay, so what about the high end of the port pressure curve on the M14 gas system? It cuts off earlier and lets in less total volume of higher pressure gas on hotter loads. Heavy bullets (NOT NATO-Spec) and slower powders (again, NOT NATO-Spec in resulting port pressures) is the only circumstance reported to overcome the M14 gas system on the high side.

How do those same loads do with the FAL?

And how much variation can the FAL take before needing to be adjusted?

The M14 system requires no adjustment by hand, with inertia and gas pressure and the close-off port in the piston doing all the work within a very wide range of operating pressures. About the only thing it can't adjust to is the grenade-launch blank, but I understand the FAL requires some fiddling to avoid damage as well--but far more involved than a quarter-turn on a gas spindle with a cartridge rim.

 

[kotengu]

"I understand the FAL requires some fiddling to avoid damage as well--but far more involved than a quarter-turn on a gas spindle with a cartridge rim."

Yeah - you're right. It's a half turn of the gas nut, needing no cartridge rim.

I've had no problems out of the heavy bullets (or light bullets) out of my FAL (110gr to 190gr), but I've only shot IMR4895 and Varget powders - I don't know about the slower powders.

As far as "how much variation can the FAL take" - it depends a lot on how the gas is set initially. The only time I've tried this is when I was testing different mil-surp loads to see which shot best, and I never had one fail (Korean, German, British, US, Portuguese), but I set my gas to the specifications of the manual (silly me).

 

[Grump]

Yeah - you're right. It's a half turn of the gas nut, needing no cartridge rim.

Try that with a hot rifle It hurts, and using the bullet nose or cartridge rim is something I found a bit clumsy.

It is an interesting but unanswered question (so far on this Board): How much heavier than the adjusted gas setting can a subsequent load get in an FAL system before the rifle gets battered MORE than an M14 system would get battered?

We'd need to know the max recommended op rod velocity for the M14 (at the known max recommended port pressure of 14,500 PSI-or izzit CUP?:banghead: ), then compare it with the max recommended bolt carrier velocity of the FAL , and...THEN measure the FAL's bolt carrier velocity with the same max-port-pressure load at VARIOUS vent settings, to see:

A. How much FAL-style "adjustment equivalent" the M14 gas system allows with its cutoff function; and

B. Whether/how much more high-pressure adjustment is achieved with the FAL gas system.

Hang on--the FAL (inch-pattern, Canadian) I worked with had a gas cutoff in the gas block--slotted for a cartidge rim, IIRC, and only a bit more sticky than the M14 gas spindle...

When the test results are in, then I'll believe the high-pressure theory. Interestingly enough, this is the first time I've seen it advocated for heavy loads. Most cite it as an advantage to assure reliability with low port-pressure loads.

 

[clint1911a1]

jake 98c

Sorry man. I have to agree with VG and the others. Gordan used a scoped 7.62mm M-14 (fine weapon) on that bloody day in the Bakara Market. Everything I've ever seen or read documents this fact, and that includes the book (by Mark Bowden), the movie, and the History Channel documentary "The True Story of Blackhawk Down".