Florida Officials Bow to Doc's "Three Points" of ZT

[AZRickD]

I think Point #3 tripped them up.

Your cards and letters helped...

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/p...ale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

OCALA, Fla. (AP) -- Authorities have dropped a felony weapons charge against a 10-year-old girl in Ocala who brought a kitchen knife to school to cut up her lunch.

The girl, whose name has not been released, was arrested after teachers at Sunrise Elementary School saw her use a 41/2-inch knife on a steak. She was also suspended from school for three days.

After reviewing her school record and interviewing her, investigators with the Department of Juvenile Justice recommended that the State Attorney's Office not prosecute the child. The attorney's office agreed.

Assistant State Attorney Ric Ridgway told the Orlando Sentinel that nothing in the girl's school history suggested she was a troubled child.

 

[jmr40]

Not to burst any ones bubble but the outcome of this case was pre-determined long before it hit the internet. There is a system in place to deal with cases like this and everyone involved did exactly what they had to do. In this case the system worked, and justice was served. This is exactly the outcome I predicted in the origional thread.

Doc2005 correctly stated in the origional thread that this case did not rise to the level of the ZT laws. Where we disagree is that I believe that the system has to be allowed to work, or you set yourself up for future problems.
Any time drugs, alcohol, sex, weapons, violence, or the threat of violence are involved the police must be called in my system, and in any school system that I am aware of. It is not the schools place to determine if a crime has taken place, but if any of the above are not reported the school and teachers can be held accountable both criminally and in a civil case.

If the prosecutors determine that no crime has taken place it is kicked back to the school to determine what, if any punishment is necessary. This is what happened in this case and the school system basically gave the girl a slap on the wrist with the minimum punishment allowed by thier policy.

If you do not allow the system to play out you open yourself up to a lot of future problems. As I stated in the original thread, if the knife had simply been taken and the parents called, every student in the entire school system would have heard about it within a few days. I can promise you that the thugs would have started carrying steak knives, and if caught would have stated that they were for lunch. Now what do you do?

 

[Old Fuff]

I can promise that the thugs would have started carrying steak knives and if caught would have stated that they were for lunch. Now what do you do?

It is fairly safe to say that "the thugs" would be older, and have records of past infractions. With evidence of intent, they could have been arrested - if that was called for.

The real reason this case didn't go forward was the public outrage it generated. The Sheriff officers that made the arrest in the first place should have known there wasn't a case. It was simply a matter of everyone protecting their own behinds at the little girl's expense.

 

[Buttermilk]

This is some more of "a police state" crap that America has slowly been led into "for the good of all"! Those laws need to be taken off the books or codified to apply to just what they were intended for: special circumstances. The school officials could have determined intent without the police having to step in. It is time to give schools back to their leaders and get all the others out.
I guess nobody can tell the government "NO" because of all the money that comes from the government with strings attached.
Let's let the professionals (school administrators) do what they do best and get "big brother" out of everything.
What happened to plain old horse sense?

 

[jmr40]

Public outrage had nothing to do with the outcome of this case. I've known of dozens of cases just like this that had the same exact outcome where the facts were never made public.

Yes, everyone was protecting their behinds, and for good reason. There are lots of horror stories out there where people did not follow the proper procedure and it came back to bite them in the butt.

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

public outrage should have nothing to do with it !

The public can be and has been manipulated by the press too often to allow public opinion to decide matters of law ! The reason the legal system was involved in the first place is to protect the scool officials from making responsible decisions and being held accountable ! Yes the system worked it should have ,it has to !! The only thing tat bothers me is it all seems to be set up to provide legal butt covering for people whu are in charge but not willing to make a decision ! kevin

 

[mekender]

the worst part is that the "system" worked as it was not intended... the object (a steak knife) was not a weapon... it was being used as a tool, not a weapon... if the girl had threatened someone, then it becomes a weapon...

 

[Robert Hairless]

Assistant State Attorney Ric Ridgway told the Orlando Sentinel that nothing in the girl's school history suggested she was a troubled child.

But it does now. If that 10-year-old girl wasn't troubled before this incident she most certainly should be troubled as a result of it.

Many adults become troubled when they are forced to live through felony investigations for non existant crimes. Who could possibly believe that a kid can escape serious damage.

At the very least this child--and others--has been taught that people get slammed by the system unfairly and need to fear it. No one should torment children, no matter what justification they fabricate.

 

[AZRickD]

If anyone doubts that the heat generated by the forums, blogs, and FoxNews didn't play a role in this doesn't know much about activism. You would have to discount all the times that a six-year old was suspended from school for drawing a picture.

We Rock. Don't let the nay-sayers tell you different.

Rick

 

[xjchief]

I think the case just illustrates how useless the government is at everything from education to investigating felonies committed by a little girl eating her lunch. If you think this system is working when all that has to take place over a lunch knife then you need your head examined.

I hope I can afford to send my kids to a private school where they won't be subjected to the retardation of the public school system.

 

[jmr40]

AZRickD, I applaud your activism, and would encourage you to continue to do so, but I am convinced this case would have ended the same if the media had never reported the story. Occasionally one of the media giants runs one of these stories to jack up their ratings, but the truth is that for every story you see on TV, there are 100's more that are successfully resolved with no help from the internet.

We have 2 or 3 incidents each year where a student brings a knife to school where I teach. Multiply that by 28 years in the classroom and I have seen quite a few kids in trouble. Never had a single one make the paper, and I have never seen a kid prosecuted after it was determined to be a simple mistake.

The thing most people seem to be upset about is that the police were called even though the girl threatened no one. Teachers are not trained investigators and do not have the tools or time to do the job. Quite often something that seems clear as day at first glance turns out to be something very different after careful examination.

 

[jmr40]

Part 2

Most kids that bring a knife to school do so because they are afraid of something. It could be another student, but you would be surprised at the conditions some kids live in at home. Parents who are abusive or who are using or making Meth. I have had 3 former or current students commit suicide in the last 18 months, ages 12, 16, and 19. Acting out or getting caught doing something very wrong is sometimes used by kids as a way of seeking help for things they cannot control in their lives. Until someone asks the right questions we dont know if someone just made a simple mistake or if there are other issues.

 

[jmr40]

Part 3 Covering my butt

About 6 or 7 years ago at a neighboring high school a sophmore was involved in a similar incident. The offense clearly was not criminal but by policy should have been reported to the police. This young man was an honor student with a spotless discipline record. The principal knew the parents as upstanding members of the community, so he decided to use "good judgement" and suspend the guy for a few days and not file a police report.

2 years later the same young man commited a much more serious offense and served 2 years in prison. Another student's family sued the school and principal. When the lawyers found that he had commited another offense 2 years earlier that had not been reported that was all they needed to prove negligence. Cost the school system several $100 K and the principal suffered financially as well. The guy had to retire a few years earlier than planned.

If I report a student for having a weapon at school 1 of 3 things are going to happen. If it was a simple oversight I am confident the student will not be prosecuted, but will be punished for violating school rules. If there is criminal intent he will be prosecuted. If he needs help he will get it.

 

[jmr40]

Part 4
Sorry for the rambling. I believe in activism, and think it is great that we can use forums like this to get things changed. In this case the activism was misdirected, however. Contacting the school was a total waste of time. After the case was handed over to law enforcement it was completely out of their hands. After the Duke Lacross incident I certainly hope The DA was not paying attention to any opinion polls and made his decision based on the facts and the law.

My personal opinion. The laws could be better and we should contact the people who make our laws, not the ones who enforce them.

 

[Mannix]

It's kind of a hollow "victory", I still can't believe this stupidity ever even made it to the SA's desk. It should have been handled with a gentle "Honey, you can't bring knives to school", and a talk with the parents. Done, finished, everyone lives happily ever after. Instead a 10 year old with no prior disciplinary problems was facing possible FELONY charges. That's insane, It makes me wonder if the administrator wasn't smoking crack prior to making that brilliant decision .

 

[joab]

She was arrested because she brought a knife to school violation of state law, not ZT policy
She was taken into custody only because the officers could not reach her parents
The DA chose not to charge the girl simply because there was no benefit in doing so
Everyone involved with the issue knew full well the amount of "heat" that their actions would generate beforehand

Whether we agree with the law or not a crime was committed and needed to be investigated,
It was and it was determined that prosecution would not be advantageous to any involved

Disagree all you want but there was never any intentions of taking this to felony court

 

[TexasRifleman]

That's real nice and all, but the girls life is still ruined. She was still expelled from school for 3 days, this will still go on her school record. For the rest of her time in schools she will always have in her files that this occurred. If anything else ever happens, no matter how innocent, she will be looked at as the 'girl that brought a weapon to school'.

So if there was never any intention of causing harm to the girl, or taking this to court, why was it not handled in a more expedient manner? If this had been dealt with on the scene, or at least the day of the incident, her record might have been spared. To drag this out so long still does harm.

This is not a happy ending for this girl.

 

[joab]

The girl's life is not ruined, that's an over the top exaggeration
She was not expelled she was suspended and she will only have it on file that she broke the law and school policy by knowingly, willfully and repeatedly breaking state law and school policy about bringing knives on campus, should she ever do it again she will not have the "I didn't know" excuse to fall back on

There was an attempt to deal with this on the scene but once again her parents were not there when needed.
That would not have stopped her from being suspended for three days and having an entry on the dreaded Permanent Record

Eight years from now there will be no record of this incident anywhere, she was never handcuffed, and was released to her uncle shortly after getting to the PD
Hardly a life altering tragedy, but possibly an eye opener

 

[GRB]

In my opinion it is absolutely ridiculous that there is zero tolerance in the firs tplace,let alone that you beleive it should work.

 

[AZRickD]

JMR misunderstands my activism

AZRickD, I applaud your activism, and would encourage you to continue to do so, but I am convinced this case would have ended the same if the media had never reported the story... Contacting the school was a total waste of time.

The point of this activism is to intrude into their echo chamber. Both the school and many of these prosecutors have no idea that people with opinions different from themselves actually exist. This was a wake up call.

To the other nay-sayer, If you think I stopped at contacting the school, you don't know me very well.

This is an example of my activism -- it gets very personal and serves as a warning to any other bureaucratic gunphobes:

http://free_arizona.tripod.com/montini.htm

I called my local school and had a nice conversation with someone who turned out to be an anti-ZT administrator. I am sure that knowing there was moral support out there will one day help him make the right decision one day. I also contacted gunnie friends in Florida who were mostly unaware of the situation and began spreading the word there.

If I had the time to find contact info for the police and county attorney, I would have contacted them as well.

Lastly, Joab convicts a 10-year old who wasn't indicted and didn't go to trial.

...by knowingly, willfully and repeatedly breaking state law...

She broke a law, you say? Do you remember this post in the original thread? You posted right after I posted it. You had no response then.

The Florida legislature modified the wording of the "weapons" statutes (Chapter 790) to further define a knife. This was because some criminals beat concealed weapon charges for carrying meat cleavers and the like. The intent was not to turn an ordinary culinary tool into a classified weapon.

This was changed during the 2005/2006 legislative session and the new "extended" definition of knife to not include a common table knife or a plastic knife. This was more than likely due to some unpopular cases in 2004 on which the 4th District Court of Appeals overturned in 2007 even!

So the history of the law is that this was a knee jerk political response to the police being unable to prosecute or arrest someone for carrying a common table utensil! In the end, it all comes down to the purpose of the "weapon" Otherwise, I need to get rid of all my steak knives in my home. (I have a CWFL, so I guess I don't have to.)

So, is it just easy to say that she should have known it is a weapon... or, did she and her parents think it was a utensil!!! It is like saying that the little league baseball player knew his bat was a weapon, when he brought it to school to play baseball.

Let me help this thread out by offering some actual (read... real) case law about this topic...

Under the undisputed facts, the steak knife may be a dirk, or an innocent household item. But that determination is one for the finder of fact based on a consideration of the circumstances, for example, the manner in which it was carried, how [accessible] it was to the accused, its purpose, or the accused's motive for carrying it, and its ability to cause harm to another.

Reference: Walthour, 876 So. 2d at 597
also see...
Reference: Coultas v. State, —So.2d—, (4DCA 2007)

Again, Joab minimalizes:

Hardly a life altering tragedy, but possibly an eye opener

They likely created a future libertarian activist.

Rick

 

[Geno]

Wow, I wish I could actually take even a fragment of credit for the good outcome. Cases like this make me regret becoming a graduate professor of educational administration and leadership, instead of remaining in public educational administration. Regret number two that I have, is not having become an education attorney. Children and families such as these need well-experienced educators-turned-litigators. Education is among the most highly legislated areas of law, and it is so for a reason...predictability and smoothness of operation. All these fools had to do was connect the dots.

Those who maintain that this case has progressed as it was supposed to, are so very sadly incorrect. The child's Constitutional protections to substantive and procedural due process were horridly violated. Her privacy and her family's federally mandated privacy were horridly violated.

In Michigan, in such instances a suit could now go forward. In the event the school lost, and it would, and in the event it did not have sufficient funds to settle, the district would be mandated to levy a mil or three to make payments on-going to the child and her family. I would suggest a $1,000,000.00 settlement placed into a college fund. As an alternate settlement, $5,000,000.00 into a national Children's Educational Defense Fund could be established by those involved, even if each participant had to take 5 mortgages to do so.

No, my THR friends, the system did not work as it was supposed to have worked. The system failed because the participants were ignorant, incompetent or derelict in their duties. The system ultimately bailed out a pack of unprofessional "educators" and a pack of unprofessional "LEOs".

I will close only by saying that it is this school's, and these LEOs' great fortune that this was not my child. Were she my child, there would be a steam of legal retribution the likes which this state would never have seen, even if required that I matriculate myself into law school, pass the bar and all-states in order to unleash Hades on earth to make my child feel vindicated.

Doc2005

 

[joab]

The child's Constitutional protections to substantive and procedural due process were horridly violated.

She was arrested for violating state law she was only taken into custody when her parents could not be reached, how were here limited constitutional rights violated

Her privacy and her family's federally mandated privacy were horridly violated.

What was her and her family's name?

 

[Geno]

joab:

You will have to reread the posts. I have already stated the violations very clearly. As I just said in this thread, education is among the very highest structured by statute as to the what-must-be. That what-must-be, wasn't. Time for this child's family to lawyer up.

Re: the child's life being destroyed, it is too early to say if it has been or not. We'll let the lawyers fight that fight, and therein is also part of the lawsuit. Deep-pockets anyone? Deep-pockets.

Doc2005

 

[Geno]

Ooops.

Well, what the hay...

Privacy had nothing to do with names. Hint...recall only parents (or in urgent cases a judge) can give police permission to talk to child. She also had 5th Amendment protection; that was violated. He had the right to a hearing before being suspended. Where to begin is not the problem; where to end with legal payback is the only question remaining. Go back to the original thread. There is conisderable info there, and some nice links.

Doc2005

 

[TexasRifleman]

The girl's life is not ruined, that's an over the top exaggeration
She was not expelled she was suspended and she will only have it on file that she broke the law and school policy by knowingly, willfully and repeatedly breaking state law and school policy about bringing knives on campus,

Have you applied to a college lately? I'd almost guarantee that this comes up when this girl does. She may very well be denied entrance to a university because of that note in her school record. You don't think that has the potential to drastically change the outcome of her life?

Doc is right, she should lawyer up.