Fluxeon "Annie" Annealer update

[MCMXI]

I started a thread last year about the Fluxeon "Annie" Annealer, and now that I've figured out some of the subtleties of this unit I have to say that I'd buy one again. Since getting serious about the 6.5 Creedmoor and putting more time into annealing, I've come to the conclusion that cases should be annealed twice and turned 90° between annealings (assuming that the case isn't rotating during annealing). Also, the case needs to be positioned between the coil such that the neck doesn't get overheated. For 6.5 Creedmoor brass the entire neck and shoulder need to be outside the round pads shown in the photo below, based on a 1.8 second cycle. Accuracy testing on recently annealed brass (shoulder bumped .004" below chamber datum) produced a 5-shot .235 moa group at 100 yards. If you can control the shoulder within .0005" during sizing, shoot small groups and have low ES numbers (could be better), you're probably doing something right. I'm getting there with the help of Fluxeon.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=779096

 

[Reloadron]

I remember the last thread and was wondering how things would work out using the induction heater. Apparently it works quite well. Thanks for the update.

Ron

 

[Nature Boy]

You make me sick. And if I don't quit reading your threads, you're going to make me broke and divorced.

 

[MCMXI]

Reloadron, and I remember your interest last time . I've done some more reading and have seen comments on various forums from folks who have experienced a decrease in accuracy after annealing. I've also read comments that this is to be expected and that it takes two or three firings to get the accuracy back. This made no sense to me and now I'm convinced that a decrease in accuracy (all other variables constant) indicates a problem with the annealing process. I still need to experiment with neck tension to see if that lowers the ES numbers and then validate the process on other cartridges, but overall I'm very optimistic about annealing and the ability to control shoulder bump and neck tension.

 

[MCMXI]

You make me sick. And if I don't quit reading your threads, you're going to make me broke and divorced.

HA! HA! Just make sure that you get to keep all of your shooting/reloading equipment once you move out! Seriously though, I've found that I need to bump the shoulder back after two firings of new Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass so it won't take long before the shoulder and neck work harden enough to cause problems. I'm hoping that I only need to anneal for every third loading of these cases, and that accuracy remains at 0.3 moa or better for each loading.

 

[Nature Boy]

Very nice results.

 

[Candyman87]

Wow!

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

So will you start annealing our cases for us? I mean cats meow right there but i cant justify it for my needs.
Lol.

 

[CANNONMAN]

My Wife is gonna kill me if I show her this thread. I'd be better off getting caught with computer porn. I really hate to know the answer to this but... How much does one of those cost?

 

[Candyman87]

$500. Just looked for myself.

Once I get my reloading gear back out of storage, I should have one of these!

 

[MCMXI]

I'm not suggesting that anyone else buy the Fluxeon but so far it works for my needs since it's much easier to use than flame annealers with minimal set up time for small batches. Eventually I'd like to buy the Giraud case feeder that interfaces with the Fluxeon annealer once it's available. Anyway, there are a number of choices out there and if I were doing it again I'd take a serious look at the model below even though it's $1,000.

http://www.ampannealing.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9...wyKZWTrUe1khkfLeD4xxkyRwvCwfzY_cj_4q3jMVw42tA

 

[Candyman87]

Wow... that AMP one looks really cool... but you're right... it's $1k!

 

[MCMXI]

Annealing can be done very cheaply, but some of the more expensive systems will produce consistency which is hard to achieve with the basic approaches. Few will post results showing accuracy after annealing. Many will talk of needing to shoot the brass two or three times to get accuracy back. I have no interest in burning up a barrel, taking time to reload and spending money on componenets to "get accuracy back". In the long run, the better annealing systems pay for themselves many times over.

 

[Reloadron]

Reloadron, and I remember your interest last time . I've done some more reading and have seen comments on various forums from folks who have experienced a decrease in accuracy after annealing. I've also read comments that this is to be expected and that it takes two or three firings to get the accuracy back. This made no sense to me and now I'm convinced that a decrease in accuracy (all other variables constant) indicates a problem with the annealing process. I still need to experiment with neck tension to see if that lowers the ES numbers and then validate the process on other cartridges, but overall I'm very optimistic about annealing and the ability to control shoulder bump and neck tension.

I agree as to it having to be neck tension. While I have never done much about it I have wondered about neck tension. How uniform can we get neck tension and how much will it tighten a group all other things considered? I got as far as thinking about the fixture needed to accurately measure neck tension. When I was still working I had access to a sweet proto-typing machine shop in my department but since retiring those goodies are gone. Damn, I miss that machine shop.

Over thet years I also looked at several induction heater designs, just never built one.

Ron

 

[WelshShooter]

Reloadron, and I remember your interest last time . I've done some more reading and have seen comments on various forums from folks who have experienced a decrease in accuracy after annealing. I've also read comments that this is to be expected and that it takes two or three firings to get the accuracy back. This made no sense to me and now I'm convinced that a decrease in accuracy (all other variables constant) indicates a problem with the annealing process. I still need to experiment with neck tension to see if that lowers the ES numbers and then validate the process on other cartridges, but overall I'm very optimistic about annealing and the ability to control shoulder bump and neck tension.

The decrease in accuracy is most likely attributed to the non-uniform annealing. With a manual system it is difficult to ensure that multiple cases will receive the same level of annealing. The two to three shootings to restore accuracy is most likely hardening the brass again to a level where the cases are more consistent with each other. With an automated system such as above, this problem is reduced to zero (based on your results).

Also nice job with the groupings!

 

[MCMXI]

The decrease in accuracy is most likely attributed to the non-uniform annealing. With a manual system it is difficult to ensure that multiple cases will receive the same level of annealing. The two to three shootings to restore accuracy is most likely hardening the brass again to a level where the cases are more consistent with each other.

I'm fairly sure that my first attempt with the 6.5 Creedmoor brass that I only annealed once didn't achieve a consistent anneal. By rotating the case 90° and annealing a second time I got rid of the "saddle" effect shown below. In fact, the .375 H&H brass shown below didn't shoot that well either and my load for that rifle is 0.5 moa prior to annealing. I think another induction coil orthogonal to the existing one would eliminate the need to anneal twice. Rotating the case would most like achieve the same results. As it is, I'll continue with the method I'm using since it seems to work well.

 

[taliv]

i have experienced the decrease in accuracy post-anneal.

i do not believe it is inconsistent annealing.

i have experienced accuracy returning after a firing.

i do not believe the cases are more consistent after 2-3 firings post-annealing

 

[MCMXI]

taliv, what do you think caused the decrease in accuracy after annealing if it wasn't an inconsistent anneal?

 

[MCMXI]

I did some digging around and found a post by the engineer who designed the Annie annealer. The "saddle" effect from one anneal makes sense given the shape of the magnetic field's flux lines. My experience has been that case rotation or two anneals 90° out of phase is the solution even though Mr DeArmond states that it's not necessary.



"I'm John DeArmond, the engineer behind the Annie. Maybe I can answer some questions about the unit.

This is a true induction heater. IT heats the brass by causing a current to flow in the brass via transformer action. The current both flows in a circle under each pole and around the periphery of the brass. So there are two initial hotspots but the heat rapidly equalizes. Except for the largest cases such as the .50 BMG, rotation is not necessary.

Annie is thermally protected so it cannot be overheated. The setpoint is 50 deg C which is just about the point where touching the case becomes uncomfortable but not hot enough to cause a burn.

The ferrite material is essentially a glass so it will chip if abused and will crack of the temperature is suddenly changed. Under continuous use, the work coil and ferrite will rise to about 130 deg C before it equilibrates with the surrounding air. That is hot enough to be unpleasant to touch but both the ferrite and the work coil are OK at in that temperature range.

Depending on the ferrite gap and the caliber of the case being annealed, the work coil current is in the 90-100 amp range. The coil is sheathed with siliconized fiberglass sleeving to protect the coil from abrasions. This material is good for several hundred deg C so it is not affected by the heat in this application.

This is the same heating unit that Giraud is using in his automatic machine.

There are no current plans for a 240 volt unit.

We've discussed a water cooled work coil and flux concentrator. We went with air cooling to keep the cost down and because it's not really necessary in this application. We can easily enough do a water cooled work head. If interested, write to [email protected].

We welcome all feedback and comments. Again, send them to [email protected]. You may write me with technical questions at [email protected]. I don't get around to forums very often so email is the best way to contact me.

Thanks guys,
John DeArmond
Chief Engineer
Fluxeon.com"

 

[WelshShooter]

taliv, what do you think caused the decrease in accuracy after annealing if it wasn't an inconsistent anneal?

If inconsistent annealing isn't the culprit could it be the hardness (or softness if you wish) of the brass after annealing? Does the brass need to be a certain hardness to produce good accuracy (i.e. if the brass is too soft do you not get good obturation of the case necks). Very interesting!

 

[Nature Boy]

I found another small pile of once fired Hornady 6.5CM brass at the range this weekend. At this rate I'll soon have enough to justify purchasing a 6.5CM rifle, reloading dies and annealer. Thanks a lot!

 

[Reloadron]

Among the potential problems I can see here we start with cartridge brass which in the world of brass is about 70% Copper and 30% Zinc. I say about because Cartridge Brass also known as C260 can be anywhere between 68 and 72% Copper and between 28% and 32% Zinc and still meet prescribed standards. Brass like any other alloy has a given hardness based on composition.

The guys who cast or roll their own bullets use the Brinell Hardness Scale to measure the hardness of their lead alloy. There are several methods and scales used to measure hardness, another scale is the Rockwell scale(s). Keep in mind this stuff is not my forte. The materials and mechanical engineering guys had much, much more math required of them than the electrical guys so I took the easy route.

Typically C260 Brass has a RHB (Rockwell Hardness B) scale reading of about B-77 which roughly would be a 137 to 143 on the Brinell hardness scale. Note the use of "about" and "roughly" meaning that technically, to use a very technical metrology term these numbers are not dead on balls accurate. Much like approximately, you get the idea.

We know that annealing brass makes it softer and more ductile and we know the hardness will change. The first hand loaders to anneal (soften) their brass used a simple torch, heated the case necks looking to a color change and tipped the cases over in a pan of water to "quench" the brass. Crude but effective. Then came systems with multiple torch heads and automatically rotating the brass in the flame. The annealing principal remains the same. Now we have systems using induction heating which works much like the new kitchen stoves on the market with the cold tops. Induction heating should be absolutely uniform as well as heating the brass quickly.

What I would really like to see is the numbers before and after annealing for different times with different cases. All brass cases will get hot with induction heating but since for example a .223 Remington and .308 Winchester do not share the same mass the annealing times will be different. One problem is we really don't know where we started? Was it RHB-77? What is the ending number after annealing? Not only the number but the number at several points around the case neck for example. Anyone who has worked around a materials lab knows that a hardness tester is no simple or inexpensive affair. I really don't know how much the initial hardness varies lot to lot with brass and what the change is? I do know uniformity is a big player in the game.

Ron

 

[MCMXI]

I've been putting together 6.5x47 Lapua loads for my girlfriend since August of last year using new Lapua brass. She's attending a 2-1/2 day survival/sniper course this weekend and needs 110+ rounds for the course. Her ex-husband gave her a couple of hundred fired Lapua cases (not sure how many firings) which I cleaned using stainless steel media. Her ex built the rifle for her and it looks like the chamber is about +.0025" over minimum SAAMI. New Lapua brass is about .003" below minimum SAAMI chamber so even one firing seems to bump the shoulder forward enough that I need to bump the shoulder back after each firing. If I don't, the bolt is hard to close on neck-sized only brass. In addition, the brass from her ex seems to have age hardened so I wanted to validate my annealing process before going ahead and assembling 110+ rounds for her. To that end I shot this 5-shot group at 100 yards this morning with her rifle using brass from her ex that I cleaned, neck-sized, annealed, neck-sized again, bumped the shoulder back 0.0025" with a Redding body die, and loaded. I worked up the load last year with a COL of 2.790", 38.5gr of Varget and a 130gr Berger VLD. It shoots good at 0.362 moa so I'm pleased with the annealing process.