Flying with firearms and the TSA, new info

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jeff OTMG

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
845
Location
OKC, Ok. and Austin, TX part time
I pretty much fly every weekend and so far the only airport that has had the TSA inspectors BEHIND the ticketing area has been in Indy. I ALWAYS fly with firearms, at least two handguns if not more. When the TSA inspector is outside the ticket area it is no problem for me to stand there while they do the search, whether manual or with the CAT Scan machine, wait for the okay and head off to security. I flew out of Indy on Thursday. As usual the bag disappears, the counter clerk calls TSA to let them know that guns are on the way and I wait for the call that everything is okay. I get a call that they want to do a manual inspection and want me to send the keys and combination down to TSA. No way, no how. That is a violation of federal regs. From this day forward I will carry the pertinent regs with me when travelling and I suggest that you do the same.

From the FAA:
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/AFS/FARS/far-108.txt
or
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=14&PART=108&SECTION=11&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT
This is the Code or Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 14, Chapter I,
Sec. 108.11 Carriage of weapons.
(d) No certificate holder may knowingly permit any person to transport, nor
may any person transport or tender for transport, any unloaded firearm in
checked baggage aboard an airplane unless--
(1) The passenger declares to the certificate holder, either orally or in
writing before checking the baggage, that any firearm carried in the baggage
is unloaded;
(2) The firearm is carried in a container the certificate holder considers
appropriate for air transportation;
(3) When the firearm is other than a shotgun, rifle, or other firearm
normally fired from the shoulder position, the baggage in which it is carried
is locked, and only the passenger checking the baggage retains the key or
combination; and
(4) The baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area, other than
the flightcrew compartment, that is inaccessible to passengers.

Note: The 'certificate holder' is the airline.
Note: 108.11, (d), (3) specifies only for handguns does this apply, but as we will see according to the actual TSA regs it applies to all firearms.

And for the regulations that apply to the TSA folks (which they did not know and you would think that they would) It appears that 14 CFR 108 has been recoded in 49 CFR as follows:

This is the reg that applies to the individual travelling:
CFR Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter 12, Part 1540, Section 1540.111
or more commonly referred to as 49CFR1540.111

http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=1540&SECTION=111&TYPE=TEXT

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 1540--CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY: GENERAL RULES--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons

Sec. 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for
transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a
firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
passenger retains the key or combination.


This is the reg that applies to the screening of the baggage for the TSA to follow:
49 CFR 1544.203
http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=1544&SECTION=203&TYPE=TEXT

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 1544--AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS--Table of Contents
Subpart C--Operations

Sec. 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly
permit any person to transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in
the baggage is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;
(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and
(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an
area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the
flightcrew compartment,.

Note: Here the rules are for any firearm, not just handguns as found in the FAA regs under 14 CFR 108.11.

Here is the FAQ on the TSA website:
http://www.tsa.dot.gov/public/faq.jsp or http://129.33.119.130/public/faq.jsp

Art edit: I've been advised that if the above two links don't provide the info, go to http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=09000519800ac232

Can I still transport a firearm in checked baggage? Subject to state and local restrictions on transporting firearms you may still transport a firearm in your checked baggage. However you should first check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Ask about limitations or fees if any that apply. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded packed in a locked hard-sided gun case and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you the passenger may have the key or combination. Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm so long as it is not loaded in the firearm. Small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container ? securely packed in fiber wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amount of ammunition. In addition small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container: "securely packed in fiber wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition." Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm so long as it is not loaded in the firearm.

Anyway, here is the info that you will need when transporting firearms on a flight and you don't want TSA to break into your suitcase and you don't want to become a criminal by surrendering your key and/or combination. This will save me future hassles and hopefully it will be of help to you as well. No, I am not a lawyer, but I do know how to read.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
See my thread on same basic experience. I never did hear back from TSA on my email to them about this. My Airline did reply and told me that they can't do anything and that I should contact TSA directly with my concerns.

Gov.org can and will violate their rules at their leisure.

Oh, I had copies of the TSA and FFA regs on the 2nd trip. Made no difference.
You want to fly, you must comply! Baa-Baa-Baa.
 
Sorry about that. I told them that there was no way I was giving up my key and if they broke into the suitcase where it could not be relocked that they were in violation of federal law for causing a firearm to be transported in an unlocked container. A TSA rep came upstairs and I hand carried my key and combination downstairs, escorted by the TSA person. TSA brought my suitcase to an opening between the secured area and unsecured area of the baggage inspection area. I opened the suitcase and unlocked the gun case for them. They then conducted a manual search in my presence. When they were done, I locked everything back up and my suitcase went on its' way. Unfortunately I did not have this info printed out, but I did tell them that if they had internet access that I would be happy to show them the regs. TSA was responsive because I told them what the law was and quoted the section. I was also insistent that they were not going to make me a felon and that they should be careful that they do not commit illegal acts. It is times like this that I remind myself why I get to the airport at 14:00 for a 15:40 flight.
 
Nashville, TN airport has TSA personnel behind ticketing counter. No problems encountered. Simply asked to step behind the counter to take care of business.
 
Suggestion: Print out the stuff, and put a copy in the case. Also tape a sheet with the appropriate cites on the outside of the case, along with the words "Only the owner/passenger has the key to this case."
 
Suggestion: Print out the stuff, and put a copy in the case. Also tape a sheet with the appropriate cites on the outside of the case, along with the words "Only the owner/passenger has the key to this case."
Click to expand...

When you apply all that to the outside of the bag you should also include a sign that says "There are guns in this bag. All baggage handlers and lackeys are welcome to take them."

brad cook
 
Isn't there something in the regs that the owner of the firearm is the only person who is to handle the firearm while in the airport as well?

I'm going to be flying Frontier AL next month. I will be packing a copy of the regs with me.
 
You think that's bad. The first time flew with a firearm on my return flight flying out of John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, CA. I checked my luggage and informed the clerk that I was traveling with a firearm. The clerk acted like she didn't know what to do, so after giving me my ticket she sent me over to the security booth with my suitcase.

I talked to the TSA and he said that I would have to check my suitcase with the clerk. I told him that she had just sent me to him to check my luggage. So back I go and this time the clerk along with the TSA agree to check my luggage. So they pull me over to a vacant booth, recheck my papers and the TSA asks to see the HG to make sure it is unloaded. Man talk about feeling like an outcast. I was flying out on a Saturday and everyone and their mother was watching my free show.

As discreetly as possible I unlock my gun case, show him the gun is not loaded, resecured it and as I am preparing to lock my suitcase down the TSA says that I cannot lock it. What the heck? I had just flown out of Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta and they did not ask me to leave my suitcase unlocked. I informed the TSA of this and he said rules are rules. I was very leary of leaving it unlocked especially since I also had several expensive custom knives inside. But my flight was taking off in 45 minutes and I didn't want to miss it. So I complied and was stressed out the whole time.

Long story short it wasn't until I had a chance to speak with others about my situation that I realized the TSA made a serious error in judgment. The next time I flew out of John Wayne I did not have this problem. I guess I should just chalk it up to the TSA not knowing the rules.
 
As discreetly as possible I unlock my gun case, show him the gun is not loaded, resecured it and as I am preparing to lock my suitcase down the TSA says that I cannot lock it. What the heck? I had just flown out of Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta and they did not ask me to leave my suitcase unlocked. I informed the TSA of this and he said rules are rules. I was very leary of leaving it unlocked especially since I also had several expensive custom knives inside. But my flight was taking off in 45 minutes and I didn't want to miss it. So I complied and was stressed out the whole time
Click to expand...
What idiots. That is completely contradictory to the whole intent of the regulations. I cannot even imagine what their rational was for not locking the case. That's like a UPS clerk telling you to write "handgun inside" on the outside of the package when shipping it.

:rolleyes:
 
I'm at the airport fairly regularly, dressed to blend in here in West Texas (BDU and a M9 in a flap holster), since my base requires weapons custodians to "escort" deploying weapons (they don't care much about the NCO's and Airmen, but they worry about the poor widdle weapons, but that is another story).

So there I am, two weeks ago, standing in front of the ticket counter with the poor deploying senior NCO and her locked Pelican case complete with M16A2. The counter boy announces to her that she will have to unlock the gun case and send it to the back for "inspection." Normally, I fill in for the passenger and escort the case to the back and unlock it, then relock it after it has been 'checked' (for cooties, I suspect, but I digress). However, Counter Boy announced that NEITHER of us were allowed to accompany the gun, and that the case MUST be unlocked.

Well, I didn't get an arm full of stripes by being unprepared to do deal with ignorance, apathy, and general ill will (I've been stationed on Navy bases, after all). I had issued my traveler my "Flying With Guns FAQ", which...oddly enough...has printouts of all the applicable regulations. The same ones that My Hero Jeff OTMG referenced in this very thread.

Counter Boy didn't believe the printouts, and had to get his supervisor. Wow. Double the ignorance, double the fun. After Counter Boy told me to "quit arguing", and I informed him that I was stating facts, not arguing...since arguing with an idiot just annoys you and confuses the idiot (that one made a cute 'whoosh' noise as it went over Counter Boy's pointy head, although his boss wasn't amused)...things got more interesting.

Counter Boy finally ran off and found the head TSA agent assigned to the spacious San Angelo Hair Care, Tire Sales, Chinese Restaurant, and Airport. Said agent read the regulations, announced that "...my regulations are classified" (which amused me, since I had his regs printed out, and carry a higher security clearance than most folks know even exist), and then said that "...no case would be locked in MY airport."

I, in my polite and calm fashion, honed from years of dealing with Airman...and Marines...offered to show him the Hooked on Phonics section the local library...and further offered to help him sound out the larger words as he worked through the lessons.

"Whoosh"

And this level of ignorance is when dealing with a uniformed and armed member of the citizenry. I shudder to think how they abuse citizens on a regular basis.

FWIW, I was finally allowed to carry the case back to the inspection section, unlock it for inspection, and relock it afterwards. Which I had done eight times in the last six weeks...at that same Airport. Note to travelers: don't even bother locking the cheap gun cases with the integral locks. At the San Angelo Tire Ca...well, you know what it is...Airport, one of the TSA agents has his own personal set of keys that will open most standard cases. He thinks it is funny that folks rely on standard locks. If a guy at an airport this small has keys like that, I suspect that every airport on the face of the planet is the same way or worse...




Alex
 
Alex, thanks for not backing down and keeping the drones in line.

OT, but TSA related... A couple weeks ago I was flying back from Ft. Lewis through SEATAC. I was given the glass room inspection...no big deal, the TSA guy said it was random. Well, here comes the kick in the nuts...I had some time before my flight and I was watching what was going on. I had spent 4 hours in the USO before hand and saw that every single person that was in the USO was getting the glass room. Don't know why, but it didn't feel right...
 
Guess What?!

This happened to me as well in the Indy airport... and ONLY at the Indy airport. Since 9/11 I've flown in and out of Indy, Atlanta, Orlando, and Melbourne Int'l Airports and only INDY has done this to me.
Same request - same situation.

I told the attendant that I was not permitted to unlock the case and that I felt uncomfortable by her request to do so.

They told me I was not getting on my plane unless I unlocked the case with the shotgun and pistol inside, and gave it to them with the two locks unlocked. I told them I did not feel comfortable with this and didn't believe that it was the law for them to be able to do this. They told me I was wrong and the ticketing agent told me she didn't know because they've changed their minds several times at Indy on what to do with firearms in cases.

Needless to say - I folded and managed to get both of my firearms in Melbourne - but I'm quite unhappy about it. I was nervous the whole way home to Florida.

I wish I had the time option like the previous poster - because I would have held out if it wasn't so important for me to get home.

Damn TSA!:cuss:
 
I placed a copy of the TSA rules in my firearm case tonight in preparation for my flight to CA. I also placed a copy of the airline's requirements with it.
 
I'd carry the rules either in a brief case or on my person. Don't put them in the case...if they are in there then you have to open up the case at the check in desk and might panic Joe Civillian in order to show the first drone the rules that they should already know.
 
Sometimes even carrying a copy of the TSA regs, the TSA website content, and all pertinent laws highighted still will do you no good with the TSA.

I had a long and INTENSE "discussion" with the screeners in the Fort Lauaderdale airport. They were shocked at my preparedness, but they said that the rules I had were wrong anyways and that they do it all the time with air marshalls and such.

Meanwhile my wife was trying to act casual like she wasn't afraid of my being arrested and whisked away leaving her and my two toddlers alone with a mountain of luggage.

I told them that I was only trying to make sure that I follow the law and eventually they were relented to my unlocking the box myself for a manual inspection.

Not a fun expeience at all.
 
Thanks, most useful. In addition to the printed regs, a set of phone numbers of TSA central, FAA, airline in question, and appropriate congresscritter offices can be useful, too. Taking everyone's name, title, badge numbers, etc, and notes of process/conversation can also be useful.
 
That's like a UPS clerk telling you to write "handgun inside" on the outside of the package when shipping it.
Click to expand...
Anyone think that idea isn't being (or hasn't been) seriously considered by the TSA "brain trust"? I really hate to generalize about people and groups, but I fly too often not to have begun generalizing about these folks. :banghead:
 
Why argue?

Quit playing nice, or doing the :banghead: .

Don't argue, don't freak out, politely DEMAND they get a LEO immediately. Show LEO the printout, and ask the offenders to be placed under arrest, after all, they are trying to coerce you into committing a felony. If he declines, demand HIS supervisor.

1. saves time
2. saves stress
3. edumacates an idjit

After a few idjits are either read the riot act for being ignorant/stupid or hauled off in chains the rest of 'em will mysteriously find themselves complying with the law as written and intended.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
  • Locked
Recent info on flying with firearms
Replies
0
Views
613
Jeff OTMG
J
M
  • Locked
Air travel with firearms, my experience
Replies
7
Views
685
Zrex
Z
J
  • Locked
When did the TSA change their rules on handling and inspecting firearms???
2
Replies
48
Views
5K
SMMAssociates
S
J
  • Locked
TSA confiscates firearms at OKC airport
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Bear Gulch
B
G
  • Locked
Air travel with firearms experiences
Replies
14
Views
813
spartacus2002
spartacus2002
Back
Top