When did the TSA change their rules on handling and inspecting firearms???

[JLStorm]

I have checked a firearm when I fly for the last 5 years (about 30 - 40 times per year I check a firearm). Occasionally the TSA has asked me to give them the key to my gun case and I refuse. I ask to see a supervisor and the supervisor has always stated that I am correct and that the TSA screeners are not trained to handle weapons and that the case should remain locked during the screening process, etc.

However, the last airport I went to stated that the TSA must have the key so that they can examine the gun themselves and I refused. However, this time the supervisor insisted that I give them my key and when I went to pull up the TSA regulations on my web enabled phone, sure enough, the rules have changed. The TSA website now states that you SHOULD provide the TSA with the key or combination of the lock on your gun case.

Does anyone know when or why this changed, does anyone else feel uncomfortable giving the TSA a key to your gun case in an area where you cannot watch what they are doing or ensure the gun is not simply stolen out of the case, or perhaps loaded in your absence?

Below are the current regulations:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

• * You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
• The firearm must be unloaded.
• The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
• The container must be locked.
• We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.
• You must securely pack any ammunition in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging that is specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
• You can't use firearm magazines/clips for packing ammunition unless they completely and securely enclose the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).
• You may carry the ammunition in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as you pack it as described above.
• You can't bring black powder or percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms in either your carry-on or checked baggage.

According to the NRA-ILA the TSA are not supposed to handle firearms (which was the previous rule on the TSA website):

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=204&issue=021

NRA: Are TSA employees trained in the proper ways to handle and inspect checked firearms?

TSA: No. In fact, they are specifically prohibited from handling firearms.

Should there be an occasion requiring the handling of a firearm, a law enforcement officer is called to handle the firearm.

 

[protolith]

You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane.

Your own citation suggests how this should be handled - If I was you I would refuse to hand over the keys unless you will be allowed to be present for the examination of the firearm. Their own citation suggests that the gun should never be handled w/o your supervision.

Sucks to know a TSA agent is going to put their greasy mits on your piece.

The procedure to demonstrate the firearm is cleared, should involve the firearm owner demonstrating a cleared weapon, and locking the box. No handing over of a key or combination.

As for when the change occurred, I suggest you post the question on the TSA message board, I understand that they actually respond to the questions and comments. Your query seems like a valid one they should address.

 

[Henry Bowman]

That is a significant change in the rules. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Please let us know what you find out.

This information needs to be made known quickly and widely. I can see many gun owners who absolutely know what they believe to be the law [rules] becoming quite argumentative with the TSA. I know I probably would have.

My guess is that some TSA supervisors who were called on the rule in the past complained and got it changed.

 

[WayneConrad]

Isn't it still federal law that you retain the key or combination and not give it up to anyone?

 

[Henry Bowman]

As a matter if fact it is.

Update after legal research:

The TSA web page is a summary of the regulations found in Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). The regulations have not changed and state:

§ 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.

* * *

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless --

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;

(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and

(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the flightcrew compartment,.

Notice that the TSA states in their website summary: "We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container." They can recommend that you violate the law. That doesn't mean you should.

This creates a real delima for us... We can no longer point the TSA to their own website for authority. If they have been instructed that the "rules" have changed, they may be reluctant to believe you have a current copy of the CFR regs.

Expect problems from this.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well don't just paste part of the rule, look at it as a whole:

We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared.

This is saying that you need to be present, you still do not leave the firearm unattended in the control of the TSA.

I don't see it as that much of a change really if you include that part at the end, take the key BACK after the container clears initial screening.

They are telling you to remain present when they open the container. They can open the container and still not handle the firearm. Maybe something odd shaped showed up in the xray and they want to see what it is etc.

I don't see a conflict here necessarily.

 

[JLStorm]

Henry, do you have a link to the website where you pulled that up? I will put both together later this week or early next week and mail a copy along with a letter to the TSA, NRA-ILA and whomever else I can think of that may be able to clarify.

 

[Trebor]

This isn't a recent change. I noticed this several months ago on the TSA page.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I used LEXIS, which requires a subscription. But here is a free link: http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title49/49-9.1.3.5.10.3.10.4.html

"Remaining present" can mean different things. It can mean "stand right here beside me so that you can witness what is happening" or it can mean "stay right here while I go into the other room where your bag is" or "don't go on to your plane until you get your key back."

Also, how do you "take back" a combination or comply with "...and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination"?

 

[mountaindrew]

I recently flew with a checked handgun. The agent was very polite, opened the case took a look around (I had the gun's action already locked open for easy inspection) and closed it. No hassle at all, no "greasy mits on my gun"

Only hiccup was when the teller at the baggage desk first requested a TSA agent, over the AIRPORT PA! ( he got roundly chewed out by the TSA agent when he did arrive)

 

[TallPine]

It turns out that it will be cheaper for me to rent a car one-way and buy the gas than it would be to fly - plus I can take everything I want without a hassle. (I will be driving another car back)

It won't even take that much longer either, since I would have had to fly about 5000 miles around the country just to go 800 miles

 

[REB]

I fly almost weekly with a firearm and it's never been a problem. I normally take the case out of my suitcase when I declare it and unlock it at that time. If the airline attendant or TSA agent ask me to open the case I open it so they can see it. I then re lock the case and put it back in my suitcase. The biggest confusion with TSA is whether the declaration tag goes in the locked firearm case or inside of the suitcase next to the firearm case.

The Federal regulation can also be found here.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.11.3.10.3&idno=49

 

[riverdog]

Since I always need to rent a car when I arrive, I find it easier and cheaper to just take my own. I haven't flown commercial in years.

 

[shadowalker]

I've fly pretty often and always bring at least one firearm, over the last 4 years every time I've flown they've opened the case, felt around, insured ammunition met their packaging requirements.

In Boise TSA allows me to lock the case after inspection, in other cities I simply leave the case unlocked until after inspection and give them the open locks to secure the case. I always remain present until the case is locked.

 

[esq_stu]

I agree that the rules require the passenger to keep the key or combination.

I have had this run-in with TSA before. TSA routinely ignores their own rules - I have had arguments with TSA supervisors. I have offered to open my combination lock safe for them. They insist on being given the combination and reject the offer.

TSA decides whether your bag goes on the plane or not. There's no point in arguing.

I now use TSA approved locks on my gun cases and no longer get hassled.

 

[REB]

TSA locks on gun cases are a violation of federal law.

 

[Henry Bowman]

TSA locks on gun cases are a violation of federal law.

There could be some argument on this point, but I agree with you. I use a TSA lock on the outer suitcase and regular lock on the inner hard case.

 

[TexasRifleman]

TSA locks on gun cases are a violation of federal law.

I'd completely agree with that.

 

[Pants]

We recommend that you provide the key or combination...[/QUOTE]

It is only a recommendation, and therefore not legally necessary that you comply. If you were required by law to give them the key or combo, you can bet your bottom dollar that the published regulations would say so.

Having said that, the TSA can ruin your day pretty quickly, so pick your battles.

I'm not an attorney (but I have had some experience with the law.)

 

[esq_stu]

TSA locks on gun cases are a violation of federal law?

TSA locks on gun cases are a violation of federal law.

Show me - cite the specific statute or federal rule.

If you only cite 49 CFR Section 1540.111(c)(2)(iv), where it says "only the passenger retains the key or combination," you'll need more than that.

 

[Henry Bowman]

esq stu: With a TSA lock, the TSA has (and retains) the key. Don't you think "key or combination" should be read to mean "the means to open the lock"? 49 CFR is certainly a federal rule.

 

[Bruce333]

If you only cite 49 CFR Section 1540.111(c)(2)(iv), where it says "only the passenger retains the key or combination," you'll need more than that.

Why isn't that good enough?

The TSA locks have more than one key hole, even the ones with the combination has a key hole for the TSA key. So if someone used a TSA lock, the passenger wouldn't be the only one with a key. Every TSA security station in the county would have a key.

Besides...those TSA locks are a joke...all it takes is a pair of pliers to open one.

 

[REB]

I think it is clear if you use a TSA lock you are not the only person with a key. How is that not a violation of the law you quoted if any TSA agent also has a key?

Also take a look at TSA advisory 28,2005.
Access to the declared firearm must be restricted, with only the passenger possessing the container combination or key to the lock. During the screening process, TSA may notify the passenger that the hard-sided container must be opened for inspection. In this event, it is preferred that the passenger turn over the key or combination to the screener. If the combination is sensitive, the passenger may unlock the lock, but TSA personnel must open the container.
http://www.toptonfga.org/Info/TSA_Advisory-Flying_with-firearms.htm

The law on this is clear and you can chose to ignore it if you like.

 

[XD_fan]

They changed the wording on their web site several months ago. I was called a tin foil cowboy by several when I said this would be used to justify walking off with your firearm and the key to it.

Seems the TSA attempt at social engineering has been successful. "You should give us your key because we said so." Despite no change in the law that actually makes it illegal for them to have the key much less compel you to hand it over and walk away with it.

We need less law, less security and more responsibility. I really see no point to the TSA.

 

[obiwan1]

You need to print a copy of the LAW, not the fluff from the TSA website. Go to Handgunlaw.com travel links 2 and Federal Aviation Code and print out the regs. They haven't changed!