FN Five-seveN Why aren't we all carrying one?

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My trigger isn't bad at all. And that's usually one of the first things I complain about. It's got a little bit of travel, but it is a light, clean break.

One other thing that everyone seems to be missing... the 30 round mag extensions are readily available, and most importantly they actually work. This is a game changer for engaging multiple assailants. Plus it only adds maybe 2" to the mag.

I will say it again... this thing will gun somebody down in a heartbeat. Would you want somebody with a 30 round mag on a 10/22 Magnum, loaded up with the new Hornady ballistic tips, spraying you down with bullets? It's really somewhat similar.
 
Oh, and SS190 is NOT illegal for civilians to possess. You can buy single rounds online for like $10. FNH just decided not to sell it to the civilian market, probably to keep the ATF off their backs. Maybe they made a deal with the ATF that if they call it a sporting round, then FNH will not sell SS190.

By the way, the HP rounds are not designed to wound in the same way that your .45 is. It is not supposed to expand, it is supposed to tumble to create larger wound channels with more surface area (bleeding out) than a mushroomed cylinder shaped wound track would do. Because of this, I think it is appropriate to consider energy as more of a factor than you would when comparing other rounds on paper (although it is not the only one of course.) In this department, it's right there with 9mm.

Also, you can always reload the cartridge and put whatever bullet at whatever power level you want. Or you can buy commercial reloads at significantly higher power levels than the FN/Fiocchi stuff.
 
My trigger isn't bad at all. And that's usually one of the first things I complain about. It's got a little bit of travel, but it is a light, clean break.

Reminds me literally of the Sigma. We got a case of them in at the shop when they came out. It was as bad as the previous FN plastic pistol design that was getting blown out for $250ish everywhere.

One other thing that everyone seems to be missing... the 30 round mag extensions are readily available, and most importantly they actually work. This is a game changer for engaging multiple assailants. Plus it only adds maybe 2" to the mag.

Making an already large pistol into something akin to the Mk23 or Desert Eagle in footprint. For home defense, sure - but again, for home defense I'd rather have a larger cartridge and can swing rifles, shotguns, or SBRs.

I will say it again... this thing will gun somebody down in a heartbeat.

"Gun somebody down in a heartbeat" isn't what your defensive weapons are for.

Think about what this sounds like.

It's either Travis Bickle or a mall ninja nutjob, honestly.

Would you want somebody with a 30 round mag on a 10/22 Magnum, loaded up with the new Hornady ballistic tips, spraying you down with bullets? It's really somewhat similar.

"Spraying you down with bullets" is a submachinegun, not a semi-auto pistol.

And again, think about what you're saying. In a defensive scenario, you're liable for those rounds and wher they go - "spraying" isn't a good idea at all.

Oh, and SS190 is NOT illegal for civilians to possess. You can buy single rounds online for like $10. FNH just decided not to sell it to the civilian market, probably to keep the ATF off their backs. Maybe they made a deal with the ATF that if they call it a sporting round, then FNH will not sell SS190.

You're way off, and possessing that ammo could get you in a literal world of hurt. ATF on legality of ammunition - SS190 is AP ammo.

Don't have it if you're not authorized.
 
I'd like one, but $900 for a pistol is a bit steep for me right now. Maybe in a few years (if it catches on reasonably well).
 
Reminds me literally of the Sigma. We got a case of them in at the shop when they came out. It was as bad as the previous FN plastic pistol design that was getting blown out for $250ish everywhere.

Are you talking about the USG or one of the double action only models? My USG is single action and it has about 3/16" of travel, then breaks crisp and clean at maybe 4 lbs.

"Gun somebody down in a heartbeat" isn't what your defensive weapons are for.

Think about what this sounds like.

It's either Travis Bickle or a mall ninja nutjob, honestly.

What? I don't understand what you are getting at. The point of a handgun is to gun somebody down. Defense, offense, whatever. The point is to kill somebody. I don't see how shooting someone 5 times is any more "nutjob" than shooting someone twice.

"Spraying you down with bullets" is a submachinegun, not a semi-auto pistol.

And again, think about what you're saying. In a defensive scenario, you're liable for those rounds and wher they go - "spraying" isn't a good idea at all.

Please. Let's have a real discussion about firearms, not some safety lesson for new shooters or children. You know perfectly well what I meant by "spray somebody down." Obviously you have never shot a 5.7 rapidly or you would see that you can pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible and still keep all of the rounds on target. Is it a SMG? No, but your average shooter can probably get 4 or 5 rounds a second of aimed fire out of the gun, which is still pretty darn fast. Couple that with a 30 round magazine, and anybody you are after is going to go down, period.

And nowhere on the link does it say it is illegal to possess SS190. Just that the SS190 was considered armor piercing by the ATF. If it was illegal, don't you think the ATF would stop everyone from selling it to civilians online?
 
FN Five-seveN Why aren't we all carrying one?

I looked at the FN, but I saw nothing that would make me consider replacing my Glock 21 with it.

13 +1 of hard hitting .45 AUTO in one hand is tough to beat.
 
Since I already typed up a long answer in another FN five seven thread I will simply copy and paste it here:



What I don't understand is why the military doesn't just use armor defeating 9mm rounds. Make it a steel core and make the ogive more pointy and it could work.

Because the smaller a bullet diameter the less energy is needed for penetration of thin barriers. So a .22 zipping along with a hard core has quite a bit of penetration for the low amount of energy. Since the case is also of a small diameter the capacity potential is very high. Since the energy requirements are low for the level of penetration there is also little recoil.

That is essentialy what the weapon platform the round was designed for is, so it comes as no surprise. The P90 is low recoiling high rate of fire weapon that shoots weak rounds that can still penetrate some body armor.
To try to compensate for the horrible terminal performance of a .22 the bullet is designed to bend and then tumble end over end once it gets through the body armor, giving a greater than .22 caliber wound channel.
That sometimes works and sometimes does not, and the perfomance of the round is highly dependent on it.

Since the 'civilian' (police are civilians in America, I guess they forgot) ammo is not supposed to work that way, it is little more than a .22 magnum unless different ammo is used.

So the platform is mainly for support personel in a warzone. They can 'spray' a high volume of weak rounds at soldiers in body armor from close range using a compact platform suitable in confined spaces like vehicles etc
However many have decided to just use M4s for that role rather than a specialized weapon that has different ammo requirements. The M4 has higher recoil and a lower rate of fire, but more devestating rounds, and is already widely fielded by troops using a widely fielded NATO caliber. So why would they keep the 5.7x28 around?

The 5.7 pistol was just designed to use the same ammo as the p90, and be a companion to the P90 as a main weapon without seperate ammo requirements. The P90 as a main weapon is unnecessary since something like an M4 is effective, cheaper, and already widely available, a companion pistol using the same ammo is also not helpful.


Personaly I think the 5.7x28mm is a very specialized round intended to be used from a platform with a high rate of fire. Since full auto is not civilian legal (modern platforms) it can never live up to its design in the civilian market, nevermind the seperate ammo.
I think the only thing the round has going for it is low recoil and high penetration, enabling very high rates of accurate full auto fire that still puts something through soft armor. Since civilians do not use full auto fire, there is much more effective rounds for both that task and many others.
Another thing potentialy going for it is the interesting bullet design, but those are generaly not sold to the public.
Even if they were, and you had a use for them, a semi auto in that role firing such a weak caliber is just asking to take incoming rounds before a threat is stopped. They may penetrate soft armor with the correct ammo, but the terminal performance per round is low so full auto is required to reliably stop a threat from continuing to return fire.
So if new full auto firearms become legal, a full auto 5.7 would fill a niche. Otherwise its just an expensive rodent gun in my opinion.
With semi auto fire every round needs to be more effective. There is more devastating AP pistol rounds than the 5.7 if they were necessary (of course banned by federal law.)

Of course there will be cases of it working. If many people felt confident in a .22LR and trained hard with them and they were widely fielded, reports of them working many times would also exist. That would not make it an ideal defensive round, just a widely used round by well trained individuals.






I still stand by that post.
If it was legal to convert the pistol to full auto, and the rounds the caliber was designed to utilize were widely available and legal, I could see great potential with the low recoiling round. You could keep a lot of firepower on target. Otherwise I will take more effective calibers with a bit more recoil for semi-auto fire. You give up too much without gaining enough to compensate using civilian rounds and semi auto fire with the 5.7x28mm cartridge. The whole purpose of the round is controllability on full auto fire using rounds that can penetrate soft armor, and then rapidly tumble to compensate for low energy and diameter. So civilians give up the best attributes of the round, and retain the poor ones. You end up with just a fancy .22 magnum.
 
Would you feel comfortable with a .22 Magnum semi-auto rifle holding 20 rounds of ammo? That is what the 5.7mm FN pistol compares with from a ballistics standpoint. Now, if the firepower package that I have described gives someone a genuine feeling of security, then the FN pistol merits their consideration. I believe this comparison is a useful way of thinking about the FN pistol and its 5.7mm round.


Timthinker
 
FN Five-seveN Why aren't we all carrying one?

Because outside of war zones bad guys don't wear body armor.

Yes, I know that generally all generalizations (including the one I just made) are wrong. But which is more likely - a mugger/home invader with body armor? Or a mugger/home invader looking for a fast, easy score and putting about that much effort into his preparations?

They are banking on you not being armed so they can score quickly and get away. And you're preparing for body armor clad assailants? Hmm...

If you like 5.7x28 then by all means get one and enjoy. Everything that goes boom appeals to someone. Personally, .22 centerfire (.22-250 and .223 included) just doesn't do it for me. If we all liked the same things then some of us might be redundant. :eek:
 
"If we all liked the same things then some of us might be redundant."

Well, I like black powder 10 ga shotguns loaded with a single .760" diameter tungsten ball. So I'm probably the least redundant of all.
 
Because outside of war zones bad guys don't wear body armor.

Not true,

I leave you with this,

If somebody was shot in the head with it would it kill them?

Stopping power for me is not an issue, So therefore that is another thing that I don't consider, as it is not daily I would be running into people who are football players tweaking on PCP (which 12ga slugs have not done a lot in some cases).
 
I've been following the Civilian Gun Defense Blog (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html) and reading my local paper and I've yet to see body armor figure into an incident. But I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion if presented with links to actual cases.

If somebody was shot in the head with it would it kill them?

I don't have a link but I remember reading a case where a woman was shot in the face with a .44 Magnum and lived to tell about it. She walked into the emergency room if I recall correctly. It did the burrowing under the skin thing instead of penetrating and killing her.

A .22lr to the head has definitely killed people. At least one .44 Magnum failed. Would 5.7x28 work? Probably. Will I ever find out first hand? Nope. :)
 
Are you talking about the USG or one of the double action only models? My USG is single action and it has about 3/16" of travel, then breaks crisp and clean at maybe 4 lbs.

Fired both variants. Clunky, ugly. DA was worse, the "SA" reminded me of the heavy police Glock triggers at absolute best.


What? I don't understand what you are getting at. The point of a handgun is to gun somebody down. Defense, offense, whatever. The point is to kill somebody. I don't see how shooting someone 5 times is any more "nutjob" than shooting someone twice.

I suggest you consult an attorney about the use of force. Seriously.

The point, legally, is to stop an assailant. "Shooting to kill" (which you've stated directly) is not legal. Shooting to stop an immediate threat or to save the life of yourself or another is.

Please. Let's have a real discussion about firearms, not some safety lesson for new shooters or children. You know perfectly well what I meant by "spray somebody down."

This isn't about 'safety lectures to new shooters' - this is about the cold hard facts of usage.

I don't have handguns to "gun people down."

I don't have guns to "spray somebody down" - I intend (and train) to shoot until the threat has stopped.

As far as what you meant, well, all I can deal with is what you've actually said.

Obviously you have never shot a 5.7 rapidly or you would see that you can pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible and still keep all of the rounds on target.

Can do that with a 45 or a 9mm or pretty much any commonly available service caliber in a 5-7-sized sidearm. It's called training.

I do appreciate the straw man however.

Is it a SMG? No, but your average shooter can probably get 4 or 5 rounds a second of aimed fire out of the gun, which is still pretty darn fast.

So can any practiced shooter with a service-caliber pistol that's the size of the 5-7.

Couple that with a 30 round magazine, and anybody you are after is going to go down, period.

.22LR is awful lethal too. Just not frequently fast enough to stop an immediate threat to the lives of those under direct assault.

For 'another couple inches' of magazine length plus the already hefty size of the 5-7 itself, you can easily get 30 rounds out of a 9mm service handgun as well.

And nowhere on the link does it say it is illegal to possess SS190. Just that the SS190 was considered armor piercing by the ATF.

That's like saying that "ATF has just declared this a machinegun" - but trying to deny that unlicensed machineguns are illegal.

If it was illegal, don't you think the ATF would stop everyone from selling it to civilians online?

LOL.

This is the Internet, where adults can buy (legally or otherwise) many items which can be illegal as all get out.

I can find dozens of obviously illegal transactions on the internet at any given time, but thankfully I'm not responsible for doing so.

At the core, the basic facts on this issure remain: the round has serious questions about its effectiveness, the weapon itself offers zero real-world advantage in terms of capacity in a service-sized weapon, and the gun itself isn't anything remarkable.

Note I've ignored complaints about pricing (which I think is outrageous in a polymer gun), styling, and other issues.

But at the core...well...

It's a double-priced (or more) polymer handgun in an exotic cartridge.

If it makes you feel better, go for it.

I own many silly, 'unneeded' firearms myself.

But in perspective of this thread, the lack of advantages is why the weapon isn't something all of us are carrying.
 
What? I don't understand what you are getting at. The point of a handgun is to gun somebody down. Defense, offense, whatever. The point is to kill somebody. I don't see how shooting someone 5 times is any more "nutjob" than shooting someone twice.
How old are you? You talk like you're about fifteen.

The point of ANY firearm is to hurl a projectile at a target. The nature of that target is entirely subject to circumstances and the shooter's choice.

The point of self-defense is to STOP someone from wrongfully endangering your life and limb. If they die in the process, shame on them. If they don't, then as long as they stop what they were doing, you're ok and they become somebody else's problem.

You say things which point to attitudes which would indicate that you may not be mature enough to own a firearm, much less carry one.

By the way, I've never "gunned someone down" with my Giles .38 Special M1911. Am I misusing it, or is it broken? Should I sell it and get another firearm which WILL "gun people down"?
 
For those truly intrested, either go to 57forum.com or fnforum.net. You will get real information from people who acually own and use Fivesevens and PS90s.
 
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However, what you are missing is the incredible rate of aimed fire possible. You can fire off 4 or 5 shots of 5.7 for every shot of a higher recoiling caliber. This increases the odds of a CNS hit.

As has been posted already, this is not literally true -- and not even close. An averagely practiced shooter can accomplish split times of 0.18 sec. and sometimes less, using a .45ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm, or other common full-power service round. That's six on-target, controlled shots in just over one second, or, said another way, a cyclic rate of over 300 rounds per minute.

(You'll need to seriously work on your reload times for that, though! :what:)

If what you are saying was true, you'd be talking about a split time of 0.04 sec. which is significantly faster than the cyclic rate of the most zippy sub-machineguns (as in 1500 rounds per minute). That is ludicrously unrealistic.

Truthfully, it is a given that none but a very small handful of the most practiced (and naturally gifted) shooters will be able to perform the physical movements of trigger pull, reset, and pull again -- and allow for the time required to cycle the action -- in much less than fifteen hundredths of a second. (Jerry Miculek and others of his level are shaving this down, of course...but he doesn't choose to shoot a 5.7, either!)

So the question remains, if I can't physically operate the gun more than a hair faster than a .45, why would I trade away the ballistic advantage of a 230 gr. +p JHP for the best-est .22 in the whole world?

Body armor? That's why we practice the Mozambique drill over and over. And the need is still vanishingly unlikely.

The 5.7 is a very niche-specific cartridge and the P90 is where it is supposed to shine. It is NOT a battle rifle for field troops and the pistol version is merely a tag-along companion weapon with very little to recommend it.

I can think of one situation in which it is fielded currently where there is a high probability that assailants would be wearing armor and would be at fairly short range. The defense team carries that weapon (P90) in happy-switch variant and with the right ammo for the task. They will almost certainly never have to use them, but they'd probably do ok if they had to.

There is absolutely nothing in my life that parallels that situation. Neither the gun nor the "good" ammo is available to me, and I am in no way a target which would attract that kind of concerted effort, preparation, or equipment from those who might do me harm. If I ever have to draw a gun in self-defense, it will almost certainly be against an aggressive, but unarmored, assailant or three. That's just what the statistics tell us. Nine rounds of .45 (delivered in under 2 seconds if need be) will do a better job than 20 of 5.7mm (delivered in no less than three seconds) could do.
 
As has been posted already, this is not literally true -- and not even close. An averagely practiced shooter can accomplish split times of 0.18 sec. and sometimes less, using a .45ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm, or other common full-power service round. That's six on-target, controlled shots in just over one second, or, said another way, a cyclic rate of over 300 rounds per minute.

Just to be the devil's advocate for a second, rates of fire like that are usually only accomplished by people with more than "average" practice, and who use very light loads, that just barely make "major."

I'd say I'm about "average" with a pistol (in that half the people at the range are way better than me, while the other half is way worse!). I can get off about one to one and a half good, well-aimed shots per second, with 180 gr .40 S&W. Now, if I load up some 135 gr powder puff loads, I could probably get off 4 or 5 shots in a second. But that's not the kind of ammo I carry.

Of course, switching sides again, I'd have a lot more confidence in the stopping power of light creampuff .40 loads, than I would in standard 5.7mm!
 
Howdy! Phew..... this has been a long read going through this topic/posts and I would like to say as some have said; if you like the 5.7 x 28mm go for it, if you don't, don't buy one. I can't help notice that no one has mentioned that the 5.7 round, like a rifle round because of it's high velocity, will create a more permanent wound cavity, than a low velocity standard pistol round.
http://www.fnforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=5991
The above link will take you to the FN forum for those interested in knowing more. LM
 
I can't help notice that no one has mentioned that the 5.7 round, like a rifle round because of it's high velocity, will create a more permanent wound cavity, than a low velocity standard pistol round.

Because we're not defending ourselves from the Hawaiian Punch invasion force, most likely ;0

Seriously, if you're convinced, you probably already have the weapon.

If you're not, you probably already own something that does the job just as well or better.

9mm, 45, 5.7, whatever, fired out of a pistol is still a pistol round.

Out of a rifle, the 5.7 isn't bad for what it is. Out of a pistol I'm just not impressed.

That and the 'test' listed compared a rifle length barrel to a Ruger pistol.
 
I find it amusing that the people touting the kill quality of the 5.7 round also seem to fail to realize that those results were obtained with a type of projectile prohibited for civilians to own, thus negating any presumed advantage of their latest "pet" chambering.

If there is an allowance for a FA, SBR, spiffy round P90 w/supressor, it might be something most people would look into. Until that point, I'll stick with the X-number of "one shot stops and/or kills" obtained with .357, .38 Special, 9mm, .45ACP, or any other number of proven, reliable, trusty, and capable firearms, all of which have garnered their reputation with ammunition and firearm capabilities accessible to us "normal" people.
 
I can't help notice that no one has mentioned that the 5.7 round, like a rifle round because of it's high velocity, will create a more permanent wound cavity, than a low velocity standard pistol round.


Because the short barrel of the pistol and the heavier civilian legal projectiles do not achieve the velocity associated with rifle wounds. The Five-seveN hurls the 40 grain bullets at about 1,600 FPS; I have 90 grain 9x19mm loads that clock 1,640.

Even the 5.56 NATO has had questionable performance when velocity drops below 2,500 FPS.

The SS190 fired from the P90 load has proven that it can poke lots of tiny holes through light body armor and the body behind it. But take away the armor piercing potential, the high cyclic rate and the higher velocity attained in the longer P90 barrel, and you're left with an expensive plinker.
 
I was talking the legal ammo.

So now then of all the shootings ( and being a new caliber) the majority have been 1 or 2 shot kills, anybody?

Outside of the "police use better ammo than you can" that's nearly impossible to overcome, the fact is that a rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. One-shot stops from *any* pistol are not to be counted on, period. However, I want something that has widespread use and known effectiveness with ammunition that is available to me, in a service-weapon-sized platform with an established history as a primary sidearm.

Don't get me wrong, a gun is a gun and better than no gun - but there is a reason why 'we're all not carrying them.'
 
Just to be the devil's advocate for a second, rates of fire like that are usually only accomplished by people with more than "average" practice, and who use very light loads, that just barely make "major."

Ahh, my friend, you need to get out more. Or practice more. To use an easy example, anyone who practices much at all for IDPA and USPSA type competition will prove you wrong.

Yes, you can go even faster with bunny fart loads, but I'm talking about loads that have to be at or above certain well-defined "power floors" or "power factor" Lets say at least 200 gr. moving at 825 fps.

-- BUT --

If you haven't practiced enough to accomplish that (and who is to define "average" practice is a good question, I suppose) then why in the world do you think that you'll be able to put 20 shots (of even bunny fart 5.7) where you want them when facing a violent attacker?

If you are inaccurate with a .45, .40, and 9mm, then you'll be just as ineffective with a 5.7!

If you can't hit it with the first 14-19 rounds of service ammo from an xD, Glock, M&P, or whatever you choose to carry, what in the world makes you think you're going to become James Bond for the last 1 to 6 shots?
 
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