Folding stocks and AWB

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Tinker

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I'm a long time shooter and hunter, but I'm rather ignorant about a lot of legal gun related stuff. Maybe one of you more learned can answer this.

I remember several years ago seeing folding stock rifles for sale in local gun shops and at a gun show or two. I also used to see after-market folding stocks in catalogs. The catalogs now (like Cabelas) sell non-folding look- alike stocks now. Thier ads state: "non-folding to comply with federal firearms laws". Did the AWB kill folding stocks or was it another law? Thanks.
 
It was the AWB.

The AWB bans:

(1) all guns/magazines holding over 10 rounds, except for .22 rimfires using tubular magazines and reproductions of certain Civil-War-era carbines with over-10-round capacities.

(2) All detachable-magazine self-loaders with two or more of a list of "evil features"; and

(3) All guns having any of 19 banned names.

The problem for folding stocks is #2 above. The law lists "folding or telescoping stock" and "pistol grip protruding conspicuously beneath the action" as two separate features. So you can have a Monte-Carlo-style stock that folds, OR a stock with a pistol grip that doesn't fold, but you can't have a pistol-grip stock that folds. Other listed features include a threaded muzzle, a flash suppressor, and so on, so if you have a threaded muzzle you can't even have a pistol grip.

Note that folding stocks with pistol grips ARE legal on guns with fixed magazines, bolt-actions, and so on; the "evil features" list applies only to detachable-mag semiautos.
 
Putting folders on imports can be a problem, however. Anything that could not have been imported with a folding stock is illegal (or, at best, a legal maze) to add a folding stock to. SKSs are the biggie for that: older SKSs are folding-stock legal, new ones are not (unless you replace certain parts with US-made parts, if you can find them).
 
Thanks for repling to my question.

I guess what I'm asking is will we see folding/collasping stocks again after the AWB sunset?

From what I've read on the subject I thought that some other law, besides the AWB ban, can into play on this subject. Guess I was wrong. Thanks.
 
I guess what I'm asking is will we see folding/collasping stocks again after the AWB sunset?
Oh yes.

Guns imported after the 1989 executive order will still have to comply with Sec922r, aka 10 parts rule.

State and local laws will remain, of course.
 
Destructo,

Pre - 89 guns? I thought the AWB was signed into law 10 years ago under Clinton. I'm still confused. Are you saying that if I could buy a pre-89 import that I will be able to install a folding stock after the AWB sunset that I couldn't befor the sunset?

What was the excutive order about? Was that law before the AWB passed? I'm guessing in 89, right?
 
The 1989 Bush Sr EO prohibited importation of foreign weapons that weren't "sporting". So lots of companies started putting on thumbhole stocks, removing bayonet lugs, etc to get around it. But to restore that rifle to it's "fighting prime" you have to make it a US weapon with "some" foreign parts on it, hence the nifty AFT "10 parts rule", where any rifle with 10 major parts made in America is considered a domestic rifle and is free to do what it wants. Well, was free till the 1994 AWB came down. Once the AWB goes away, foreign born rifles with at least 10 US parts can have all the goodies.

It is not usually stated, but Century and other importers usually swap out trigger groups, op rods, and stock sets to make those FN-FAL, AK, and G3 clones US parts compliant. So be careful if you slap on a Russian stock set on your imported AK, you may have just created an illegal rifle. But then, who can ever be sure?
 
So be careful if you slap on a Russian stock set on your imported AK, you may have just created an illegal rifle. But then, who can ever be sure?

Maybe - its not so clear that an executive order is binding on anyone other than an employee of the federal government (unless coongress passes a statute that dictates otherwise)
 
Thanks Jason for the EO info.

The "ten parts" rule still sounds like a bummer. Sounds to me that if you had a $100 dollar SKS (standard) you'd have to spend 3 times that much to make it legal.

If you bought an American made rifle, like a Ruger 10-22, then it'd be OK to install a folding stock after the AWB goes belly up?
 
An executive order is ONLY binding on the internal management of a federal agency and arises from the president's power as CEO of the federal agencies.

It has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA impact or force over the day to day actions of private citizens and has ZERO ZILCH NADA law enforcement value.
 
countertop, you go ahead and fight that one - I'll chip a few bucks in for your legal team. Executive orders are enforceable on the public at large, whether or not in actual legal sense, as public perception allows them to be, the same with the continued existance of the IRS. So, you violate the executve order in this sense, make it known, and we'll cheer you on.
 
Executive orders are enforceable on the public at large, whether or not in actual legal sense, as public perception allows them to be, the same with the continued existance of the IRS. So, you violate the executve order in this sense, make it known, and we'll cheer you on.

Huh?!?!?!?

I guess I don't know how to respond to lots of these posts sometimes.
Have you actually ever read an executive order? Any executive order? Or are you too busy constructing tin helmets and hiding from the black helicopters.

For anyone who wants more info on executive orders, <a href="http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/about_executive_orders.html">this</a> page is a good start.
 
The "ten parts" rule still sounds like a bummer. Sounds to me that if you had a $100 dollar SKS (standard) you'd have to spend 3 times that much to make it legal.
Most of the common imports have US parts readily available these days. AKs in particular. Most of the currently-available imported stuff already have some US parts content. To add a folding stock, you just need to be aware of the imported parts count after the stock is installed.
 
Once the AWB goes away, foreign born rifles with at least 10 US parts can have all the goodies.

That is actually no more than 10 imported parts from this list:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

The amount of required US parts differs per rifle.
 
I know I'm not the only one to think or say this, but man it's getting silly. THE LAW DOES NOTHING related to crime prevention. I bet the anti-gun folks are having a laugh riot watching us law abiding gun owners jump through hopes and do back-flips in order to remain law abiding gun owners.

Think of how much easier gun ownership must be for the gangsta’s. No back ground check, no waiting, buy and sell whatever is available without regard for silly little laws. Just think of those gang punks buying guns like they’re FREE to do what they please.

Gameface
 
I have a question. I asked it before somewhere else, but was not clear on how it works. If someone has an imported gun brought in during the ban, and this gun has the required number of American parts, are all of the provisions of the AWB still binding on that gun after sunset date? Meaning, can we put folding/collapsing butt stocks on a ban period gun after the ban "goes away"? Or are the terms of the ban still in effect for those guns for all time? Do the guns still have to have a certain number of American or "non-evil" parts to be OK?
 
Do you have a reference to the AWB law or ATF ruling that I can look up? I'm not trying to be a smart alek, I just want to be 100% sure, not rely on anyones best judgement or opinion before doing anything. So far nobody has given me a definitve "this is exactly where it says........." answer.
 
Do you have a reference to the AWB law or ATF ruling that I can look up? I'm not trying to be a smart alek, I just want to be 100% sure, not rely on anyones best judgement or opinion before doing anything. So far nobody has given me a definitve "this is exactly where it says........." answer.

There is a link to the ban itself (or at least the Public Law) here

I've actually been trying to get to the bottom of this and its quite confusing.

As far as the AWB law goes - forgt it exists. Once the 13th arrives, its over with and has no bearing on anything.

The provisions concerning imported parts are a little more confusing. Bush 1s original executive order does not seem to be in effect anymore. That is - I can't find a copy of it anywhere (either in the Code of Federal Regulations (online or on Lexis and Westlaw - sadly, my office doesn't keep hard copies of the entire CFR anymore, only the individual titles we actually do work from) or the National Archives list of Executive Orders). From what I can gather, the executive order was subsequently adopted by congress in a statute sometime in 1992 (still tracking that down) and then a regultion was adopted under that statute. However, the interplay of all these is confusing.

As I stated before, the Executive order has no bearing on private citizens. It is simply an order to the executive agencies. Think of it as a memo from your boss telling you to do something with your boss being the president and you being the releveant Federal Agency or Federal Employee). From hat I gather (and without being able to actually read the language of the executive order - if someone has a copy, please post it) Bush's order prohibited the granting of import licenses to firearms who fit the ten parts test. Once those guns made it into the U.S. of course, under the order the owner is free to do what they want. I don't know what changes the 1992 statute made to them (if it made them at all).

I'm going to try to research this some more this weekend, but the time to do it is limited.

Can anyone shed any more light on what exactly happened and what the effective dates where?

To make things all the more confusing, the AWB (eer, the underlying Crime Bill) repealed many parts of the exisitng U.S. Code for bookkeeping reasons. It appears to me, though I am not certain, that some of the 1992 statute may have been repealed and replaced by the AWB. If thats the case those provisions are gone for good too. It would take another act of Congress to re-enact them - though again, I have not the time to check all this out.

As with all things legal, if you want this information to be accurate, your best advice is to hire a lawyer to do the research for you. For many people, this might actually be an issue, though I imagine for most on this board, its not and won't justify the costs.
 
Thanks for the reply. I travel a fair amount and do NOT want the slightest chance for misunderstanding if I get checked out in the middle of rural nowhere or a gun unfriendly city for some reason. I will not do anything to my gun unless and until I can have a printed copy of the law or ATF ruling in hand while traveling. There does not seem to be a hard and fast requirment that law enforcment officres have a solid understanding of the details of the law. I'm not critisizing, I have several friends that are LEO's, just being very careful.
 
are all of the provisions of the AWB still binding on that gun after sunset date?

When the AWB sunsets, the AWB ceases to exist. The AWB won't be binding because it won't exist.
 
So far nobody has given me a definitve "this is exactly where it says........." answer.
SEC. 09. EFFECTIVE DATE.
This title and the amendments made by this title--
(1) shall take effect on the date of enactment of this Act; and
(2) are repealed effective as of the date that is 10 years after that date.
Repealed upon Sept 14 - effect of the AWB law will be null-and-void. Ceases to exist. History eraser button gets pushed.

Come September the 14th, the AWB's passed on! This law is no more! It has ceased to be! AWB's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! AWB's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If they hadn't written it in black-and-white it'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the books! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-LAW!!
...ahem. Apologies to Monty Python.
 
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