Follow up on the Staunton VA incident

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Really an interesting story, and I think it illustrates the fine line that poilce must walk between investigating suspicious behavior and respecting civil rights.

The unfortunate part of this incident is that citizens often view open-carry as suspicious behavior. It seems to me that the police have a duty to confirm that the reported behavior is suspicious before detaining anyone. However, since the detainment was so short I'll be surprised if the lawsuit goes anywhere.
 
In this day and age, when so many robberies occur, with so many disturbed people opening fire randomly in establishments like restaurants, and in which the threat of terrorism has become more and more scary to many citizens, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a patron not used to observing such activity might place such an emergency call
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So because of said robberies, citizens should not be armed?

People either know the laws or they don't, and not knowing the law is no excuse to call 911 when no crime is being committed. This is my greatest fear when open carrying, sheep that are ignorant of the law.
 
If my late cousin was still the county sheriff he would have been down there buying them a drink. Well, you know what I mean. ;)

The food at Scotto's gives me indigestion, and I can eat almost anything.

John
 
Still more on the Staunton Incident

Now the Staunton News Leader has decided to write an editorial on this whole incident.

They seem especially upset because it was a group of "out-of-area" people involved. (The Staunton area has a bit of "good old boys club" going on.)

No "disclaimer" this time. They clearly state that ... "Opinions expressed in this feature represent the majority opinion of the newspaper's editorial board, consisting of: Roger Watson, president and publisher; David Fritz, executive editor; Cindy Corell, city editor; Jim McCloskey, editorial cartoonist; Dennis Neal, opinion page editor; and Macon Rich, production director."

Should anyone wish to comment to the Staunton News Leader it can be done on the editorial page or at this link.
 
I don't get it. What's the fuss over having your ID run? I've had mine checked plenty of times. If you have a warrant out, and you're dumb enough to draw attention to yourself by openly wearing a pistol with some of your buddies (who are also openly wearing pistols), then by gosh, I hope they do run your ID, find the warrant, and lock you up.

Did it call for six units to respond? Don't know. Wasn't there. Probably was just a slow night, and the officers were trying to stay awake.

I did like this line, though:

We fail to understand why some people feel they must maintain personal arsenals, but it's a free country.
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Down here, that would have read "We fail to understand why some people feel they must maintain personal arsenal... such people must be paranoid nutjobs that should be put away for everyone's safety..."
 
"People normally do not go around Staunton, Waynesboro or Augusta County with sidearms strapped on."

Plenty of trucks with long guns. And somebody is keeping the gun stores in business. :)

I suppose the powers that be have aspirations of being just like Charlottesville - a liberal-ish urban utopia of some sort.

I remember one summer back in the '60s when it became faddish for young men to open carry at the Hardee's in Waynesboro. It was the primary hangout in town, and only fast food chain, and was usually full of younsters driving through and milling about. They actually had to put a fence across the back of the lot to keep the cars from endlessly circling the building. The town put an end to the gun carrying with a new law.

John
 
I don't get it. What's the fuss over having your ID run?
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As I understand it (I know a couple of VCDL members) the fuss was about an unlawful detention simply because some citizen was "uncomfortable".

Somebody is uncomfortable and calls the police... fine

Police respond and assess the situation... fine

Some guys having a food at a resturant who aren't breaking a single law or creating a disturbance get told to "stay right there", have an officer posted to watch them, and have ID demanded and background checks run.... Unlawful detention AND demanding ID and running background checks without probable cause is ILLEGAL in Virginia.

Now I'm not saying I know all the facts and that there might be even more to the story, but the "News Leader" sure isn't printing journalism on this matter, their bias was clear long before the "editorial" piece came out.

I especially love the "out of towner" bias. Sadly Staunton, Charlottesville, that whole area is well known to be an "us" and "them" kind of place. Too bad because it's a pretty area and "them" (the out-of-towners) pour an awful lot of money into the place via tourism and such.
 
I must be too tolerant, because I still don't get it. Being told to "stay right there" when I'm waiting for my food at a restaurant? What am I gonna do? Walk out? I haven't eaten yet...

If checking ID's is illegal, then they do have a right to complain. Wasn't that settled in a Supreme Court decision some time ago? Don't cops have the authority to check for warrants any time they're "under the color" of their authority? A citizen's complaint would put them "under the color", I'd think. I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

Regardless, I fail to see how the armed citizens were harmed. Of course, the responding cops should have made a point of finding the caller, and letting everybody in the place know who the moron was that wasted all of their time and tax dollars.
 
I fail to see how the armed citizens were harmed.
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Anyone who interrupts my liberties better have a damn good reason for doing so.

There was no good reason for those cops to interrupt their liberties, hence their complaint is justified.
 
"Another customer called police and complained to management when the men went into a bathroom together."

Yeah, they probably went in there to put their ski masks on before robbing the place. :banghead:

John
VCDL Member
 
A citizen's complaint would put them "under the color", I'd think.
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A citizen's complaint probably is enough to put them "under the color," if the circumstances warrant it. However, most of us think that not every citizen's complaint should allow police to be put "under the color."

For example, suppose I call the police to say you are looking at me oddly and it makes me uncomfortable. Should the police be allowed to detain you on this information alone? I would think not because it isn't illegal for you to look at me oddly.

The real complaint here is that police are detaining people when no crime has been commited, and the citizen has not alleged that a crime has been commited. If no crime has been commited (or alleged), then why are the police detaining law-abiding citizens? Should all law-abiding citizens surrender their liberty anytime police feel like running their ID to check for warrants? If you think it isn't a big deal, then how do you feel about police check points where all citizens must stop and show their ID?
 
ceetee said:
Don't cops have the authority to check for warrants any time they're "under the color" of their authority? A citizen's complaint would put them "under the color", I'd think. I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.
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you would be wrong. a citizens complaint does nothing unless the complaint can also articulate facts about a crime being committed. In VA, it is a requirement of the law to open carry in any establishment that serves alcohol. Three men, obeying the law, made some idiot nervous. Said responding police officers, having zero evidence that ANY law was being broken, decided to terry stop and run ID/background checks. Completely unwarranted and illegal.
 
Personal Opinion, Your Mileage May Vary..

Perhaps it's just me, but my perception is that gun owners, being on the sharp end of the civil rights spear, are beginning to realize just exactly where the threat to the Bill of Rights is coming from. It's not from Iran, not from Al-Queda, and not from mad muslims, though all of those folks can be very dangerous.

Forget Ruby Ridge and Waco. Gunowners saw National Guard, FBI, Local Police and imported Police standing around as a California Trooper assaulted a 98 lb little old lady in her own home on the excuse of taking her pistol under a plainly illegal order in New Orleans. Not one LEO batted an eye....and they KNOW the Bill of Rights.

Which means of course, that those sworn folks also know the Bill of Rights is invalid, for all practical purposes when THEY won't protect it. And they don't.

Gun owners saw those ATF guys with their knee on the back of the kids neck on the Westly Foundation Campus Ninja and Pirate day. Were those two officers interested in citizens rights or ATF Power?

Gun owners have seen their municipal courts and traffic police turned into ATMs for the city. They have read KELO. They have looked at their property tax assessments from the local Appraisal Districts. They have filled out their IRS forms. They have gone to jury duty and been sent home. They know the border is held wide open by the folks who are supposed to seal it.

That's why, I think for SOME of them, when a police officer tells them to "stay right there" and wants to run their IDs....they get a little antsy.

Government is SUPPOSED to protect citizens rights, that's why we established it. I'm not sure that's the case today.

But to be fair, some folks think everything is hunky dory, and we should sit quietly and follow any instructions from anyone in authority. I fully realized that those folks are the majority today.

So, that's why I have a hard time celebrating the rise of State Power and the eclipse of Human Rights and our Bill of Rights. Not much left, IMPO.
 
Education

If enough people open carry, they will get the message. In areas where this is a problem, perhaps one member could call the police on all the others just to get a chance to educate the police. Three times a week until a better result is reached? Daily?

;)
 
When a dispatcher gets a call of a "man with a gun," the correct response should be, "So what? Is he doing anything wrong? No? Then go back and finish your meal and stop making bogus reports to the police."
 
For example, suppose I call the police to say you are looking at me oddly and it makes me uncomfortable. Should the police be allowed to detain you on this information alone? I would think not because it isn't illegal for you to look at me oddly.
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Point taken.

If you think it isn't a big deal, then how do you feel about police check points where all citizens must stop and show their ID?
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"Sobriety Checkpoints" have been use for quite some time. Where do you draw the line? I've been stopped and had my ID run because I Was driving a vehicle similar to one that was subject to a BOLO. Was it wrong for that officer to stop me because he didn't actually see me rob a bank?

I understand that this may be the step-off point down that slippery slope. As far as I can tell, though, the officers handled the situation somewhat professionally, didn't violate anyone's civil rights, and placated a sheep or two. As I already said, if I had been that officer, I would have made it a point to educate that sheep as to the law, and what was (and wasn't) proper use of taxpayer-funded manpower. I still see no need for the banging of heads and gnashing of teeth.

The next time this happens, the restaurant patrons can just say, "Not this crap again..." and hopefully avoid creating hard feelings between themselves and the local constabulary.

A little patience goes a long way.
 
"Sobriety Checkpoints" have been use for quite some time. Where do you draw the line?
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Actually, I think sobriety checkpoints should not be allowed for the same reason - no indication of a law being broken. If you took it to court the judge would tell you that the checkpoints are voluntary (i.e. it is not illegal to turn around and go a different way), and thus are a different situation.


I've been stopped and had my ID run because I Was driving a vehicle similar to one that was subject to a BOLO. Was it wrong for that officer to stop me because he didn't actually see me rob a bank?
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In this case no, becaues we can assume that someone has actually called in that a crime has been committed. If the citizen in Staunton had called in and said that the men with guns had robbed the place, or that they had threatened other people (both crimes) then there is no problem with the police detaining the suspects to sort things out.

The key factor is whether a crime has been committed. If a crime has been committed, then it is ok for police to stop people to try and round up suspects. If no crime has been alleged/committed, then why are police stopping people?

I understand that this may be the step-off point down that slippery slope. As far as I can tell, though, the officers handled the situation somewhat professionally, didn't violate anyone's civil rights, and placated a sheep or two. As I already said, if I had been that officer, I would have made it a point to educate that sheep as to the law, and what was (and wasn't) proper use of taxpayer-funded manpower. I still see no need for the banging of heads and gnashing of teeth.
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Here is where you are wrong. The people who were detained did have their civil rights violated. All of us have a right to liberty, and there liberty was taken away for a few minutes while the police ran their IDs. Now we all know that police can take away someone's liberty (i.e. arrest or hold them) if the person is suspected of violating a law that has been passed by the legislature and executive. However, the people in this case were not suspected of violating any laws.

The next time this happens, the restaurant patrons can just say, "Not this crap again..." and hopefully avoid creating hard feelings between themselves and the local constabulary.

A little patience goes a long way.
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According to the article, the people who were detained were polite and did not cause a scene. If filing a grievance after an incident is over so that your civil rights will not be violated again is being impatient, then I wish everyone was impatient.
 
As long as we're picking nits, Virginia does not have bars. State law and regs requires that food sales account for a certain percentage of the gross sales.

Restaurants, not bars.

John
 
VCDL In the Right...

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly....

Three VCDL members were carrying openly in a restaurant that serves alcohol, where doing so is well within the scope of the law.

One of the "sheeple" catches the vapors something fierce, and sics the cops on this small group of law-abiding citizens.

The police show up in force, approach the armed citizens, and ask them for ID. The police then momentarily detain the citizens while a background check is run.

I understand the reaction of the police -- after all, what would you do if you got a "man with a gun" phone call? For the police, it's "damned if you do and damned if you don't". If you respond, and it's nothing but armed citizens carrying legally, then you risk the ire of gun owners. If you don't respond, and it's a group of whackjobs planning a massacre, then you'll be crucified by the families of the victims ad nauseam.

Simultaneously, if I was one of those three citizens, I'd be pissed, too. I would be raising up a ruckus: unlawful detention, violation of civil rights, etc. Being a Hispanic male, you better believe I'd be playing the race card like there was no tomorrow; it tends to sow chaos and confusion among the Bradyites and their buddies in the mainstream media (they don't even know what to think when you pit one of their pet causes against another one like that). ;)

When it's all said and done, there a few silver linings associated with this entire incident. First, it demonstrates (yet again) that VCDL is a jealous guardian of the liberties of Virginia gun owners. Would that NRA was as jealous! Second, it sends a message to police and politicians in VA that gun owners will not lie down quietly and be rendered extinct (for an example, see NY's Sullivan Law, etc.). Finally, the attendant publicity surrounding this incident has informed many "sheeple" (who would not otherwise be so informed) that VA gun owners will defend their gun rights tenaciously and that open carry is legal in the state of VA.

Personally, I expect a massive Exodus to occur soon: the flight of Bradyites from the dangerous, blood-laden streets of VA to the safe havens of Washington DC and Maryland. And is that really such a bad thing? :D
 
Here is where you are wrong. The people who were detained did have their civil rights violated. All of us have a right to liberty, and there liberty was taken away for a few minutes while the police ran their IDs.
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While you may be right, technically, I think it falls into the "What's the definition of 'is'?" territory. What's the definition of 'detained'? I'm sitting, eating my meal, a cop runs my ID, returns my ID, I continue eating my meal. In fact, I've never stopped eating my meal.

I used to know a fed that would be drinking with his buddies. He'd leave to go use the facilities, and while he was gone from the table, he'd mosey on out to his car (unmarked, but with lights on the dash, and siren under the hood) and use his onboard computer to run the plates on all the cars in the parking lot. Just for giggles. What's the difference between the two. (Aside from the obvious fact that this fed I knew did it while not on duty, and not in response to any complaint from the public.)

I think it's tempest in a teapot time.
 
What is the difference?

while he was gone from the table, he'd mosey on out to his car (unmarked, but with lights on the dash, and siren under the hood) and use his onboard computer to run the plates on all the cars in the parking lot. Just for giggles. What's the difference between the two.
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Well, unless the VCDL people had their name, dob, address, and driver's license number tattoed on their foreheads, I would say there is quite a bit of difference.

How about another difference? Would your friend, if someone got in their car to leave before he ran their openly displayed car tag, display his badge and gun and inform them he was "detaining" them until he could run their tags?

Just curious.
 
I think it's pretty obvious that the police had every legal right to approach the men and speak to them. They even had the right to ask for their id's in order to run background checks. The men had no need to comply and should have been free to go at any time. If the police prevented them from leaving they were in an illegal position.

I don't blame the sheep that called. I do blame the members of the so-called civil defense league for not playing their cards right and showing the officers just how wrong they were. They should have refused the id's and stated that they were going to leave, if even for just a walk around the block. This would have forced the police to act properly and leave them alone or screw up. The screw up would have led to a major lawsuit and we wouldn't need to have this conversation because it would be being taken up in court.

ps. I have been a tourist in the Staunton, VA area to the nearby Ramsey's Draft Wilderness area. I really enjoyed the area, buy anywhere there is a fair amount of tourism you will have an us vs. them mentality to some degree. BTW, one of the most beautiful places I have seen in my life.
 
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