Follow up on the Staunton VA incident

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Open carry

CeeTee---here in Louisiana it has always been legal to open carry since the state had a constitution.But during the 49 years I have lived here I have consistently been told that while it was "technically" legal(whatever that was supposed to mean)you could be arrested for it. You cannot--if you can legally own firearms.

But through the years devious and clever means have been used to "discourage" the practice.One of the these was to use the concept of 50% or more of the gun hidden and you were breaking the law. There is not and never has been such a law.

Also the ruse of "creating a disturbance"--- and many others too numerous to mention.

I can not speak for Virginia law--but her in State vs Ferrand---last paragraph--"the public possesion of an openly displayed handgun is not a crime in Louisianaand DOES NOT ALONE PROVIDE PROBABLE CAUSE FOR AN ARREST".

Here if absent the firearm the person's actions would not be cause for alarm then there is NO PROBABLE CAUSE for the police to approach the person at all.

So--if I was eating dinner in a restaurant this certainly would not give anyone cause for alarm.

I suspect that the same applies in Virginia as well.

As for the duty to respond--the police have no duty to protect specific individuals--so the remark by the police that they have a duty to respond is fictional--and I believe they know it.

Ask the Gonzales,Louisiana police dept what happens when you "question"someone who is legally open carrying a firearm.

Education is the key here---the public and the police.
 
It's been perfectly acceptable for years for a cop who is following someone down the highway to run a check on the tag. I don't see this as any different.

Only because you do not wish to see it as any different.

Running the tag of a car driving down the street does not forcibly detain anybody.

These men were detained while the police:
(1) Ran their i.d.
(2) Pressured the management to make them leave their guns outside.

How can you still claim to see no differnence?

None at all? Really?
 
When an LEO detaines a person, a legal line has been crossed. Two requirements must be met before an LEO is allowed to interrupt the person's liberties:

1. Evidence that a law was broken.

2. Assuming #1 is true, evidence that the detained person was somehow involved in the crime.

Neither of these requirements were true for the VA incident. Hence the LEOs broke the law.
 
Here is the ridiculous response from the Ramond Robertson, the Commonwealth's Attorney:

Complains of this nature do not have to allege an illegal activity. All they need to show is an articulable suspicion.
Right, but articulable suspicion of a crime. Does wearing a gun constitute articulable suspicion that a crime has been committed? Only a complete moron would think so.

I would analogize with the case of a patrol officer late at night who observes a car driving very slowly, alternately going off the side of the road and then crossing the center line, and making wide turns. None of these actions constitute an illegal activity. However they do arouse suspicion and that is enough to give the officer the right, and indeed the responsibility to investigate further.
Give me a break!! Weaving in the road and driving erratically is an indication the driver is impaired, which is a crime. Lots of evidence supports this. Does wearing a gun indicate a crime may have been committed? Is there any evidence to support this?

it was quite proper for the officers to run background checks on these gentlemen to make sure it was legal for them to be carrying guns.
Is that right? So an LEO can pull anyone over just to see if they have a valid driver's license, and for that reason alone? :cuss: That would never fly in court, as it would mean any LEO can pull over anyone!!! :banghead: :fire:

The more I think about this, the madder I get.
 
My imaginary interview with one of the LEOs:

Me: Why did you ask for their IDs?

LEO: Well, because they were carrying firearms.

Me: Is it legal to openly carry a firearm in Virginia?

LEO: Yes, as long as the person is not prohibited by law from doing so.

Me: So why were they detained? Did you have evidence a crime had been committed somewhere?

LEO: No, not at all. We were acting on a complaint.

Me: So why were they detained? Why did you demand their IDs?

LEO: As mentioned, some people are prohibited by law from carrying a weapon. We wanted to check to see if they fell into this group.

Me: So you can pull me over when I'm driving in my car, just to see if I have a valid driver's license, and for that reason alone?

LEO: Well, um, well, um, no.

Me: Are you allowed to detain a person and find out if there's a warrant for their arrest, simply because they have lots of tattoos?

LEO: Well, um, well, um, no. Well you see, um...
 
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Try getting your head away from what's "technically" legal, and put yourself in the position of a cop that's been called to investigate "men with guns" at a restaurant.

1. At first you probably won't know whether or not there is going to be a strong need for assistance. There may be.

2. Once you find out that this is really a non-issue, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you turn around and walk out, you'll be hearing from your supervisor about the phone call that was made to complain about the people whose complaint you ignored. If you don't, you'll be hearing from your supervisor about the people whose civil rights you violated. You're in a "no-win" situation.

3. You weigh your options, and try to find a way to resolve the issue so that nobody's feelings get hurt, and therefore, they don't call "their very good friend the mayor"... You run ID's to placate the sheep. You suggest that the armed diners be more discreet. You leave, hoping that that's the end of it.

Is that the best resolution? No. If I were first on scene, (and assuming I'm fully informed of Virginia's statutes...) I would have seen that no laws were being broken, calmly advised the sheep and the restaurant manager of that, tipped my hat to the whole place, and gone for coffee. If I were one of the VCDL folks, though, I would have tried to be a little more understanding of the crappy spot the sheep put the police officers in, and cooperated politely.

Their response to this mess leads one to assume (incorrectly as it may be) that they are just taking on the roles of attention hounds, seekin gto use this incident to create publicity for their cause.
 
"Try getting your head away from what's "technically" legal,"

Why? Legal is legal. No? Why try to invent something called technically legal to support your point of view?

I can see the officer walking in and scoping out the situation and saying "Hi" if he felt like it, but where is the legal justification (jurisdiction, justification, etc.) for running IDs? Curiosity? That's not good enough.

You know the old saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Applies to the peace officers, too.

John
 
you'll be hearing from your supervisor about the phone call that was made to complain about the people whose complaint you ignored.

Ignore? Who said ignore? If I was the cop on the scene, I would have simply told the owner that no crime was committed. I would then tell my supervisor, "I checked with the restaurant owner and asked if any crime had been committed. He said 'no'. I also checked out the situation myself. I did not observe anything illegal going on. I also did not see anything suspicious that would lead me to believe a crime may have been committed." End of story.
 
After reading this thread, i'm getting the feeling that ceetee isn't a fan of open carry at all. Are your statements being colored by your ideology of concealed carry being better than open carry?
 
I maintain that simply asking for the men's ID's does not constitute detainment. The men were free to refuse their ID's and should have been free to leave at any time. If the men gave their ID's up at the officers "request", not "order", then the officer was probably acting legally. An officer should have the right to speak to people that they encounter. Remember that in officer speak there is a large legal difference between their "requests" and "orders".

It also sounds like the real suspicion came when the three men each went to the bathroom at different yet overlapping times. Let's be realistic, if a THR member was in a restaurant and three men in street clothes and with guns went to the bathroom at different yet overlapping times most of us at THR would be on the alert. This event was caused by a typical sheep reaction, and the police had every right to respond.
 
The three men could have turned the whole situation around by telling the officers the rest of the restaurant crowd made them feel uneasy....and suggest they run IDs on everyone in the restaurant. I bet the LEOs would have found something to make their trip worthwhile.:)
 
I maintain that simply asking for the men's ID's does not constitute detainment. The men were free to refuse their ID's and should have been free to leave at any time. If the men gave their ID's up at the officers "request", not "order", then the officer was probably acting legally. An officer should have the right to speak to people that they encounter. Remember that in officer speak there is a large legal difference between their "requests" and "orders".
True enough.

In most states, there is no law that says a person must hand over ID when requested by an LEO. (Unless they're operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway, of course.) So when an LEO requests to see your ID, you should politely refuse. Every. Time.

In some instances, you do not know if you're being legally detained by the LEO. If the situation is ambiguous, you should ask the LEO, "Am I free to go?" This forces the LEO to tell you whether or not you are being detained. If he/she says you are not free to go, you are (obviously) being detained.

In order to detain you, an LEO must have RAS that you are involved in a crime. There is no gray area here... in order to detain you, an LEO must have RAS that you are involved in a crime. If it appears the LEO has detained you without RAS, the cop has made a very bad career move, and you should make his professional life hell. Be alert, take notes, and sue the pants off him and the department.
 
Okay, I missed it, did the officer say "Would you be so kind as to allow me to see some ID pretty please?" or "Show me some ID fellas."?

John
 
It's true, DK, that I'm not a big fan of open carry. I'm not dead set against it, though. It's a personal choice that is best left up to the individual, keeping in mind compliance with local statutes.

It's just... I can put myself in the position of those cops. Maybe some of them were fresh out of the academy, and looking to bust balls wherever they could. Maybe the person who complained is some big politically-connected jerk that gets his jollies yanking chains. I wasn't there, and there are too many "maybe's".

I think the cops there were probably just looking for the most convenient way to placate everyone involved so they could get back to their donuts. I can sympathize with that, and if I had been one of the VCDL I think I would have been a little easier-going. That's all.
 
Try getting your head away from what's "technically" legal, and put yourself in the position of a cop that's been called to investigate "men with guns" at a restaurant.

Oh CeeTee, I was HOPING you'd go there. As I stated in post #32, I have been a cop (a rookie in Virginia no less) and I have been in an almost identical situation and I got my backside chewed OFF for not knowing how I was supposed to handle such a situation.

1. At first you probably won't know whether or not there is going to be a strong need for assistance. There may be.

Which is why you find a good spot and observe. No contact, just unobtrusive visual observation. Assess the situation.

2. Once you find out that this is really a non-issue, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you turn around and walk out, you'll be hearing from your supervisor about the phone call that was made to complain about the people whose complaint you ignored. If you don't, you'll be hearing from your supervisor about the people whose civil rights you violated. You're in a "no-win" situation.

What's this "win" you are talking about? There is no "win", it's a job not a gameshow. A law officer's job is to enforce the LAW. A citizen can complain all they want that their complaints were "ignored" (in fact citizens DO complain constantly about that very thing) but any decent review board will see that the officer responded and decided it was a non-issue. End of complaint as far as the boys in blue are concerned.

3. You weigh your options, and try to find a way to resolve the issue so that nobody's feelings get hurt, and therefore, they don't call "their very good friend the mayor"... You run ID's to placate the sheep. You suggest that the armed diners be more discreet. You leave, hoping that that's the end of it.

With a sinking feeling because as a trained officer you know (or should know) that YOU just bent or outright broke the law. At the very MINIMUM anyone who reviewed situation later should have explained (to the officer) the proper course of action and then required that the officer write a letter of apology to the citizens.

Is that the best resolution? No. If I were first on scene, (and assuming I'm fully informed of Virginia's statutes...) I would have seen that no laws were being broken, calmly advised the sheep and the restaurant manager of that, tipped my hat to the whole place, and gone for coffee. If I were one of the VCDL folks, though, I would have tried to be a little more understanding of the crappy spot the sheep put the police officers in, and cooperated politely.

What you say you would do is exactly what the officer SHOULD have done. The part that really rubs me the wrong way is that you suggest a citizen who is entirely legal in their actions should allow their rights to be infringed to satisfy the fear of a "sheeple". The irony is the fear of the "sheeple" tends to come from the abrupt puncturing of their "I'm safe, nothing can happen to me here" when they see someone else with a firearm and are suddenly forced to take off the blinders and realize just how vulnerable they really are. But do "sheeple" take a personal and civic responsibility to handle that vulnerability and fear? Nope, they just call for the "take care of me" people (be it cops or politicians or whomever) and order the "take care of me" people to make that disturbing reminder of truth go away.

Their response to this mess leads one to assume (incorrectly as it may be) that they are just taking on the roles of attention hounds, seekin gto use this incident to create publicity for their cause.

And even if they were, so what? This sort of action exposes a huge inculcated public bias, a lack of training, a lack of knowledge of the law, and most of all the hidden but rampant fear (of crime, terrorism, etc) that runs in this country (which I personally believe is milked endlessly by the politicians for their own agendas). The more I hear about this the more I think the VCDL is providing a genuine public service because we sure as hell aren't "more safe" with more cops and more laws, that just clogs up the system. We are "more safe" when each of us acknowledges our own, personal, civic responsibility towards society and shoulders that burden rather than shirking it.
 
Ceetee wrote:

Is that the best resolution? No. If I were first on scene, (and assuming I'm fully informed of Virginia's statutes...) I would have seen that no laws were being broken, calmly advised the sheep and the restaurant manager of that, tipped my hat to the whole place, and gone for coffee.

That is all we are asking, for LEOs to do their best.

:)
 
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