For anti gun folks you know

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MachIVshooter

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A couple of days ago, I had a lot of thoughts circulating in my head. This is not the only thing I got out in writing, but I believe it's one that may be useful in bringing people around. Feel free to share, constructive criticism is welcome.

I do ask that no one plagiarize me, though; If you submit my writing to someone else, such as a newspaper editor, please credit me.

It's a somewhat lengthy diatribe, but please bear with me.
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Think about your freedoms


As the gun control debate rages, my mind is a flurry of activity. I am a gun owner, a hunter, a shooter and a collector, so I definitely feel under attack. That said, this is a different kind of appeal to the other side; it is not some trite regurgitation of “shall not be infringed”, of trying to convince my opposition that one gun is no more lethal than another, or about how gun control doesn’t reduce gun crime-even though those things and many more are true. No, this is an angle that I don’t believe the anti-gun crowd and those who support them or are indifferent on the issue have considered very much, if at all.



There is no question that gun control of any kind infringes on the rights and freedoms of current and future law abiding gun owners. This is not up for debate; it’s a cold, hard fact. Some of the gun control that has been passed over the decades may have had a tiny, remote effect on gun violence, while the extreme majority of it has not. But for the purposes of this argument, the effectiveness (rather a lack thereof ) that any given legislation has had on crime or gun violence is wholly irrelevant. The real issue with gun control is how it affects every American’s freedom. In this dissertation, I will articulate exactly how.



As I write this, gun rights are under attack at the federal level and in my home state of Colorado. The Democrat party controls the federal senate and the presidency, and they control both houses and the governorship in my state. I have written countless letters and made countless phone calls to my representatives and others. I have attended public committee hearings on the proposed legislation, and I have spoken at these hearings. My words, like the words of any other person or group in opposition, fell on deaf ears of the Majority party pushing this legislation. The fact that they have to accept our letters and hear us testify in these hearings is merely an inconvenient formality of their jobs. They truly do not care how valid the opposition’s arguments are, or how many people took the time and made the sacrifices to be there and be heard on very short notice. Their minds are made up, the hearings are just a dog and pony show. If you actually feel that you have a voice, just attend one such hearing in opposition to the majority party proposing it; you’ll be cured of your belief that us serfs matter at all. Government officials may have heard that all men are created equal; they may have even spoken those words. Rest assured, though, that they are quite certain they’re more equal than you or I.



My appeal is primarily to those supporting the gun control measures, but also to those who are indifferent to them. You may not like guns at all, or you may not care if people have them or don’t. Most people have some opinion on the matter, but few care enough to get involved. That doesn’t mean this won’t affect you. Just because you don’t like guns and want them to go away, or because you don’t personally wish to own one, does not mean that anti-gun legislation will not cost you. Sooner or later, the political pendulum will swing the other way. Given the nature of gun control, how it tends to make people single issue voters and mobilize a base in ways that no other issue can, I suspect that pendulum swing will happen sooner than later, most likely in the 2014 and 2016 elections. Gun owners do not forget, and at approximately 80 million in this country, we are not an insignificant population. When the political power does shift, hold onto your hats. You won’t be dealing with the same old republican party; The one that follows this sweeping gun control movement will be a scorned and vengeful one, out for blood and chomping at the bit to strike back. This is what I mean when I say that gun control hurts us all; EVERYONE has some freedom they hold dear, and every single one of those freedoms is a target of one party or the other. Maybe for you it’s gay rights, maybe it’s religion, maybe it’s women’s reproductive rights- doesn’t matter; whatever it is that you value in your life, one of the two major political parties opposes it on some level and seeks to infringe, restrict or abolish.



Now consider this; I’m a libertarian with conservative undertones. I believe strongly in personal freedom, and I don’t like to see government attempt to strip it from any person or group under any pretense. But I am also human, and suffer from the human condition. As rational a person as I am, I’m not immune from emotions, and I may sometimes be inclined to act on them, despite my principles and possible future consequences. The right to keep and bear arms is paramount to me, not only as a man who enjoys hunting and recreational shooting, but as a person who values the right and the ability to defend himself and his family, be it against violent common criminals or a tyrannical government. As such, if this right that I value so highly is infringed on by the party currently in power, revenge when the scales tip will be very tempting-maybe even too tempting, to the extent that I could abandon my beliefs in staunchly defending all people’s personal freedoms in favor of punishing those who supported or allowed by indifference the restricting of my rights. So while I would ordinarily say yes, I am personally pro-life, but no, I don’t support government intrusion on a woman’s right to choose, in understanding that the party guilty of assaulting my right is the same party that is supported by the pro-choice side, there is a possibility that I will NOT speak out for those who are under attack when those rights are on the chopping block. Same for other issues that don’t affect me personally and will seem to strike back at those who struck first. Again, as pro-freedom as I am, punitive action against those who supported directly a party that attacked me will be very appealing, and may even win the argument in my head. If a libertarian like me can feel this way, imagine what a died-in-the-wool, kool-aid drinking hard line republican will do.



For for the record, even though I lean conservative, I no more identify with or support the extreme religious right trying to legislate morals according to the bible than I do the progressive left trying to force single payer healthcare. Once again, freedom for all is the point here, irrespective of your personal beliefs. You want to raise your kids according to the principles of whatever religion you practice, great, do it. Far be it from me or anyone else to tell you that you can’t. But don’t try to force other people to rear children that way, taking away their freedom to raise them how they see fit. Similarly, if you’re a homosexual, good for you, I’m glad you figured out what makes you happy, and I will not support any legislation that attempts to restrict your right to life, liberty and your pursuit of happiness. But don’t expect special class treatment, and don’t accuse a prospective employer of being homophobic and engaging in discrimination, subjecting him/her/the company to punitive action, just because someone else fit the job requirements better and you didn’t get it. And no, I’m not talking about the interviewer who actually says “I won’t hire you because I don’t like gays”; that person would be guilty of infringing on your rights via real discrimination. You have the right to do whatever makes you happy (so long as it doesn’t infringe on other’s rights), but you do not have the right to dictate what other people do because it makes you happy.



Nobody owes you anything. Again, it’s a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Happiness is not guaranteed by the constitution; the guarantee is that you will be allowed to pursue it. And there is absolutely no language in the constitution that allows you or anyone else to pursue it legislatively, especially when that legislation negatively impacts other people’s right to their pursuit of happiness. Yes, I’m talking about legislated special rights and legislated, forced “charity”. You have a right to earn a living, and I have a right to earn a living. You do not have a right to supplement your lower income with some of mine; if you feel that you should have some of what is mine and proceed to take it, we call that theft, and it is a violation of my rights to retain the property I rightfully possess. Why is it any different if the middleman government takes it from me and gives (part of it) to you? If you’re not making enough money, improve your skillset and find higher paying employment. Using legislation to make others pay when you come up short is the antithesis of freedom.



Continuing with the theme of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the liberty part. Liberty is not safety, and liberty is not certified safe; you are not guaranteed safety by the constitution. We, as a society, may make laws that improve safety, and that is acceptable, even favorable, to the extent that those laws do not take away liberty. This is tricky for law makers. Not because it’s actually difficult to write legislation that improves safety without restricting liberty, but because they don’t comprehend the liberty part. It’s quite simple, really; your rights end where another person’s begin. We have the right to free speech, but it is not unlimited; you do not get to say things that incite panic and endanger the lives of others, infringing on their right to life. The classic example has been yelling “FIRE!” in a crowded theatre when there is no fire. We also have the right to keep and bear arms, but that right does not allow us to be reckless with a deadly weapon, which would potentially kill people, infringing on their right to life. So again, it really is a simple concept. I am absolutely confounded that it seems to elude so many, especially those in government.



With freedom comes responsibility. Exactly what the responsibility is depends on the particular freedom. But the principle we live by in the United States of America, as laid forth by the framers, is that we are born free. We do not have to earn these freedoms, we are not indentured to our government or anyone else. As such, these freedoms are not to be stripped from a person or group of people without due process, and due process does not include preemptive strikes against innocent people for something they could or might do. Innocent until proven guilty, and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are the principles of our great nation. The ONLY reason to infringe upon or take away the rights of a person or a group of people is if they’ve demonstrated that they cannot be trusted with those rights. And demonstrated is narrowly defined in this respect as having done something or being overly likely to do something that infringes on another person’s rights. We do not imprison innocent people for what they could do, only for what they did or showed that they would most likely do if not removed from free society. As the former, the latter is also something only done through due process. We do not determine that because somebody looks scary or acts in a way we disapprove of that they should not be free. We only imprison (institutionalize, as it were) a person who hasn’t yet committed a crime if they pose an extraordinary risk to society, and a specific, arduous process is required prior to restricting their freedom, with the onus of proving why that freedom should be restricted falling on those attempting to do the restricting. That is the responsibility part; unless a person demonstrates that he or she cannot exercise his or her freedoms responsibly by not infringing on another person’s freedoms, we do not take them away





I implore you to open your mind and try to think differently than you likely ever have. I wasn’t always such a pro-freedom person. I always thought I was, but as I got a little older (I’m 31 now), I began to realize that I was like most others; I was pro-MY freedom, with little regard for how legislation that didn't affect me harmed others (and, as demonstrated in this diatribe, actually did affect me in the long run). When I was younger, I did not have the tolerance for alternative lifestyles that I do now. And no, this wasn’t the product of being brought up in some bigoted right-wing family. My sister and I are actually the only conservative-leaning people in my entire family, on either side; The rest are staunch Democrats. So some of my intolerance may have been rebellious in nature, some of it was the result of influence, and some was in retaliation to having other people’s agendas shoved down my throat. Ultimately, though, I came to realize that such bigotry is not only unhealthy, but is also counter-productive to the American ideal. It didn’t happen overnight, but after a period of time I dissolved this intolerance. This does not mean I don’t have my prejudices, of course. We all do. Nobody is that tolerant, regardless of how benevolent and altruistic they believe they are. The difference is that some of us can keep our personal prejudice from influencing our decisions that affect the lives of innocent people, and some cannot. If you support legislation that restricts the rights of other innocent people, you are of the latter persuasion. You can deny it all you want, but that’s a fact. Unfortunately, this is a hallmark of the progressive left; Nearly in the same breath, I will hear “for the greater good” and “if it helps/saves just one person”; These tenets create an insoluble paradox of ideology within that group. To be fair, the other side is not devoid of such irreconcilable dogma.





Folks, we can’t afford to lose ANY of our liberty in this day and age. It does not matter if it is one that you personally care about or not. No party holds control forever, and both parties seek ultimate control. Every few years the power shifts, but one theme is common; freedoms that are lost under one reign are seldom restored when the political scales tip. It’s just the other side’s turn to lose. Eventually, there will be nothing more to take from the American people, and when that happens, party won’t matter. We’ve seen both sides moving closer to a common ground of totalitarianism; the only difference is the techniques and the propaganda used for the usurpation. Presently, the parties are really only separated by a few hot button issues. Once those are decided (read-the rights and liberties of each group have been destroyed by the other), there will be no use for a multi-party democratic republic, and we will all be disenfranchised. Then you can watch things fall apart completely. Mark my words, that day is coming. The only way to stave it off is to fight for rights and freedoms; not just the ones you value personally, but ALL OF THEM. I will continue to stand up for the rights of groups I do not associate with or even agree with, and I expect the same from you. Let’s return this nation to one of limited government, a government that is once again of the people, by the people and for the people. In the words of Benjamin Franklin, “We must hang together, or we will most assuredly hang separately.”
 
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Liberals don't think of the 2nd and guns as rights and freedoms. They see them as dangerous items that should be removed for public good. A good that overrides ANYTHING. If you can get them past this, then you might have something.
 
Liberals don't think of the 2nd and guns as rights and freedoms. They see them as dangerous items that should be removed for public good. A good that overrides ANYTHING. If you can get them past this, then you might have something.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do here; make them see that what one person or group or political party views as a valuable freedom, the other may not, so we need to stand together to stop ALL encroachment, lest everything be lost through partisan legislative retribution.

If you can think of better verbiage to articulate this point, or a way to make the argument more persuasive than the one I've put forth, I'm all ears.
 
It is a well written piece, but you are using arguments that appeal to your way of thinking. They seem logical and compelling to you, but will they seem logical and compelling to your target audience? Having used the same or similar arguments in the past, I think not.

This is what I encounter most often from the "other side"

Personal freedom. This is a non starter with most progressives. They tend to think in collective terms, not individual. Personal freedom is, to them, a euphemism for the rejection of society. Society represents the greater good. The individual exists only to serve the greater good, not to be served by it. Liberty is anathema. Anyone talking about liberty is just trying to avoid contributing their fair share to the greater good of society.

Rights. "Rights" is just a quaint way of saying privileges. Privileges are what you are allowed to exercise in return for your contribution to the greater good of society. But those privileges should never be allowed to interfere or endanger the greater good so their exercise must be strictly regulated.

The Constitution. This is an antiquated document that describes a system of government that has proven unsuitable to the needs of a progressive society. Unfortunately, many people have an emotional attachment to it, so it really can't be discarded. But it can be re-imagined and reinterpreted so that it can be made to allow what needs to be done, and when that isn't feasible, it should just be ignored when it gets in the way of progressive action.

Happiness may not be guaranteed, but Equality is. It is impossible to have economic equality when there is a disparity of wealth. Everyone must contribute to the greater good. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. The wealthy must pay their fair share.

Individuals are nothing without each other. We are all in this together as a society and government is the means by which society achieves its goals and distributes the wealth produced by the society to its members. Individuals contribute to the production of society, but individuals can produce nothing without society and so have no claim on what they think they produce themselves.

The problem with the other side isn't a lack of understanding, it is a lack of common values
 
+1
and besides that
they are RIGHT
and they know it, there is no convincing someone who is assured of their infallibly
there MUST be doubt and area open to change to be have a mutual discussion

you are left attacking a pillar of belief, most people are irrational and all butt hurt when you show that their value system is hypocritical and baseless...
 
I shared this on facebook with my friends and family, and I made sure to credit you. I also provided the link to the original on the forum. I hope that's okay with you. :)

Absolutely brilliant work!

Cheers,

-Chris
 
Micro Tecniqs, you're probably right. I was hoping to be able to make them see the hypocrisy of their belief system, try to appreciate that we value some things as much as they value others, and that standing against one freedom is, in essence, standing against all freedoms.

I guess I am just hopeful, because no matter how collectivist one's thinking is, it seems that they will start screaming about freedom and liberty when you pinch them in a certain spot. Human beings, at their core, have their own interests at heart, bar none. We are sometimes able to suppress that and do things that benefit others with no personal gain, or even at a cost to us. Ultimately, though, there have been but a handful of human beings who were truly altruistic. Most have ulterior motives; usually there is something to gain by their actions, even if it's only patting themselves on the back.
 
Human beings, at their core, have their own interests at heart, bar none.

MachIV, I used to believe that. Then I met what seems to be an entirely different species of human being, homo progressivus. They don't think like the rest of us. The true homo progressivus is distinctly middle class and they identify as a collective class, not as individuals. Their goal is to raise the lower classes and lower the upper classes so that there is only one class with the same values, working together for the greater good of all, without conflicts of individual, selfish interests. Their chosen vehicle for accomplishing this social engineering is a strong, powerful central government to which all citizens are loyal and subservient.

It is not an individualist mentality, it is not even a pack mentality, it is more of a hive mentality. Society (the hive) is the primary organism, not the individual.
 
MachIV, I used to believe that. Then I met what seems to be an entirely different species of human being, homo progressivus. They don't think like the rest of us. The true homo progressivus is distinctly middle class and they identify as a collective class, not as individuals. Their goal is to raise the lower classes and lower the upper classes so that there is only one class with the same values, working together for the greater good of all, without conflicts of individual, selfish interests. Their chosen vehicle for accomplishing this social engineering is a strong, powerful central government to which all citizens are loyal and subservient.

It is not an individualist mentality, it is not even a pack mentality, it is more of a hive mentality. Society (the hive) is the primary organism, not the individual.
+1 mt - well said
 
I suppose it's useless to point out to homo progressivus that even honey bees sometimes fight to the death, despite not even being capable of thinking.

I see your point, MT, but I still believe that even this species has selfish interests. They are not immune from the human condition, which means we can appeal to them on some level. Back to the drawing board to figure out what that is....

Nonetheless, I don't believe your average voter is of this species, so I think the pro-freedom argument has much merit. To make it personal and drive it home, you just figure out what their Achilles heel is and go for it. Once you know what freedom, right or privilege they hold dear, you can assemble a case for it's destruction using their own ideology. Maybe it changes their mind, maybe it doesn't, but hopefully it will compel them to think about it.

The point of my posting this is that I have found a much greater degree of success in approaching the pro-gun argument from an angle of being pro freedom across the board. We are easy to dismiss if we come across as angry, bigoted right wingers clinging to our guns. But if we can appeal to their American side by pointing out that we also support their rights and freedoms, even those we find useless or disagreeable, they tend to be more amenable to our side.
 
There are still homo sapiens who are driven by enlightened self-interest. But these people are generally not the anti-gunners, these are the non-gunners. They don't own guns, really don't care about guns, have no personal need for guns, could do very well without them, and assume others could likewise. These are the people you might reach with your "common endangered freedoms" argument because when it comes to guns, they usually haven't given it much thought. Quite often they are the liberal left, which is really distinct from the progressive left which at this time is fronted by Barack Obama.

But the liberal non-gunner is not the enemy, the liberal non-gunner is the prize. The enemy in this struggle is homo progressivus. They are the ones with whom we contest for the soul of the nation.
 
But the liberal non-gunner is not the enemy, the liberal non-gunner is the prize. The enemy in this struggle is homo progressivus. They are the ones with whom we contest for the soul of the nation.

And to that end, I believe we outnumber the enemy substantially. Problem is, the enemy has to exert little effort in convincing the non-gunner that "reasonable restrictions" are acceptable. Getting them to see our side is a much tougher battle.

If you're a non-gunner, the notion that smaller magazines will equate to less deaths in a mass shooting seems to follow. Making them understand the intricacies of reload times, tactical reloads, reaction times, options for taking down an active shooter, etc. and then still convey the need of good citizens for these magazines via explaining why short reload times that won't inhibit an active shooter will inhibit a defender is arduous, and sometimes fruitless when the non-gunner doesn't care enough to hear you out or engage in critical thought on the matter. It is analogous to explaining that the metal rail the person is leaning against is not actually a solid; It appears to them that it is, and they're not inclined to think about the physical change affected by temperature or the atomic structure that is molecules moving at all temperatures above absolute zero. They look, they touch, and they perceive a solid, rigid thing. Doesn't change the fact that it is wrong, but making them understand why it is wrong can be rather difficult.

So instead of glazing their eyes with more technical information than they care to digest, I appeal to the rights and freedoms aspect (not forgetting a few statistics and facts that point out gun control does not reduce violence one bit).

I guess I kinda labeled my post wrong. I know that convincing a true anti-gunner is futile. But they are not a significant portion of the "72% supporting magazine restrictions" or whatever the majority du jour happens to be. Gun owners make up roughly 25% of the population. I think the die-hard antis probably account for well under 10%. It's the other 65% we have to get through to.

I suppose I'm rather hopeful on account of nearly unequivocal success in bringing people who are indifferent or even moderately anti-gun over to our side by well reasoned and articulate discourse, and actually taking them to the range. I have seen many, many moderately anti-gun people come around, whilst I have never known any pro-gun person to do a 180. I've seen some gun owners get spooked after an accident or tragedy, but once the emotion wears off, they're back in the saddle. This firmly reinforces my belief that we have logic on our side. Unfortunately, it is the emotional side that we have to beat to win, and that can be very tricky.

I have tried and tried to think like an anti, but in truth, the only way I can see the merit of their arguments is by dismissing logic altogether. I really have tried to be honest in my attempts to see their side, for the sole purpose of knowing thine enemy, even open to the possibility that there could be some value to their tenets. No go. I simply cannot reduce my thinking to that level. My conscious mind will not allow it.
 
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I question your numbers, but the idea is valid. Gun owners are probably higher that 25%, but a portions of those counted are gun owners are also non-gunners. They own guns, but they sit in the closet or in the attic somewhere, out of sight, out of mind. I know some people who keep a gun in the night stand for protection. It hasn't left the night stand for the entire time I have known them (40+ years). There are a lot of people like this. They are a lot of the ones bringing guns to the buy-backs.

The problem I find in getting through to them is that since both liberals and progressives are close to agreement on a lot of issues, they are already addicted to the Kool-Aid on these issues and just don't see their rights as endangered. Or maybe they really just prefer the Kool-Aid.
 
The problem I find in getting through to them is that since both liberals and progressives are close to agreement on a lot of issues, they are already addicted to the Kool-Aid on these issues and just don't see their rights as endangered.

Not right now. And this is why we have to remind them of the pendulum swing. They're pretty comfy at the moment, with 4 years of Obummer under their belt and four more years to live without worry under his second coming. But just prior, they were terrified of a Row vs Wade overturn, gay marriage bans, etc. They hated bush as much as we hate Obama, and they were just as worried about losing freedom under him as we are now. This is what my treatise is about. We suffered under Clinton. They suffered under Bush. We're suffering now under Big O. Guess what comes next?

Yes, I am advocating for a complete rework of the way most Americans think. Because if we continue down this road (both sides) we are most definitely doomed. I am using this argument right now to appeal to those supporting 2A attacks, but it is just as valid the other way. Libertarian values are the only future the United States of America has. And I mean that wholeheartedly, because the alternative is the Communist/Fascist states of America. Neither of the two major parties have the citizens interests in mind. They are about total control, they're just attacking it from different angles.
 
I am sorry, but I think a nasty backlash from all of this is inevitable.
I lean left, but also fit in mostly OK with libertarians.
At the end of the day, I can only vote once.
I support a lot of things on paper, but this focus on gun control is very wrong in a couple ways.
First, it obviously attacks a Constitutionally enumerated right. I am not on board with that.
Second, it attacks a right that is very dear to me personally. I don't like that. I value voting too... and I would not let an attack on that right go unchallenged.
Last and most important, it is an attempt to circumvent the process for dealing with a controversial issue that actually can only be decided with an amendment. An amendment is hard to pass. I am certain that one limiting the Second Amendment could not pass due to lack of support, which is why no gun control proponents are championing this course of action. But to sort this out the right way, an amendment is the correct path. If government is allowed to overstep on this issue, it will begin overstepping on other rights as well. No thank you.

Like I said, I can only vote once. And the RKBA and Constititional process are very dear to me. And if I have to choose between those very essential things and social issues I support, I suspect that many people will not like my choice.
 
goon-

If you are fiscally conservative, believe in limited government, are pro-constitution and socially liberal, my friend.........

You are a libertarian ;)

More Democrats fit this description than realize it, and the same is true of republicans. It took me awhile. I always identified as a republican, but I disagreed with certain aspects of the party platform. By the time I was 25 or 26, it was clear that I was not a republican, and I was definitely not a Democrat. There were two parties that I was very closely aligned with, and one of them values personal freedom more than the other. Simple choice.

Yes, I voted Romney this last go around. As repugnant as he was, I knew how devastating another 4 years of obummer would be, and I knew that this time I couldn't vote my conscience as I did in '08.

Being a libertarian is frustrating. We still aren't really a viable party yet, and we don't like the candidates shoved down our throats by either major party. So we're forced to hold our nose and check the box next to the candidate who will be least damaging to this country, which is usually the republican (always, IME).
 
I did vote for Gary Johnson this past election. Either of the two candidates were unacceptable to me. And I knew Romney had a snowball's of winning anyhow. And I also wouldn't have wanted him for president.

But I don't think I am on board with libertarian philosophy on environmental protection through private land ownership. The private land owner adjacent to my family's home is currently having its land strip mined. It is a company, not a person. These people don't live on the land. They don't care how it looks or what the environmental impact is - their pollution will never poison their children. The blasting shakes my parents' house hard enough that things have fallen off the shelves. They are rural poor and no one cares about them. No rich landowner or corporate executive will ever show up on their porch with an apology and a check.

But on guns, cannabis, gay rights, and many other things, I'd have little disagreement with libertarians. I have some liberal views too, but a Kool-aid drinker I am not.Sorry for the minor thread hijack.
 
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MachIV,

Having spoken with you on this issue here on THR, I know you're feeling the same pains that the rest of us are in this debate (and I know this is especially true for you, as another local Coloradan). I have to tell you that I pretty much 100% agree with your perspective on liberty and freedoms in this country.

Part of our problem in confronting the other side, I believe, is that the other side is essentially being indoctrinated to believe that guns are evil... Not just uninteresting and unlikeable, but outright evil.

Perhaps you saw the recent local news story about the young kid in Loveland? He was kicked out of school because he pretended to throw an imaginary hand grenade at some imaginary "evil" while playing during recess. Another young child was recently suspended at a different school for telling another student that she would shoot her with her Hello Kitty bubble-blowing gun (the news had a picture of this toy, which hardly resembled a gun in any way).

Guns are seen as evil by many educators these days, and have been for quite some time. You're just two years younger than me, and I think it is safe to say that we're the last generation that grew up with any true freedom of thought in school. I used to discuss guns and hunting with my friends every day at school, and we'd bring in pictures of us participating in those activities. In fact, I even did a gun-oriented piece for a high school photography class project. These days, the mere mention or thought of a gun is grounds for suspension or expulsion.

While I fully applaud the ideas you expressed in your post, I still find myself grappling with the problem of effecting a systemic change to the current educational environment here in America.

Keep fighting the good fight! I have my eyes on Monday, since that could prove to be a really good or really bad day for us (I fear the latter)
 
It is a well written piece, but you are using arguments that appeal to your way of thinking. They seem logical and compelling to you, but will they seem logical and compelling to your target audience? Having used the same or similar arguments in the past, I think not.

This is what I encounter most often from the "other side"

Personal freedom. This is a non starter with most progressives. They tend to think in collective terms, not individual. Personal freedom is, to them, a euphemism for the rejection of society. Society represents the greater good. The individual exists only to serve the greater good, not to be served by it. Liberty is anathema. Anyone talking about liberty is just trying to avoid contributing their fair share to the greater good of society.

Rights. "Rights" is just a quaint way of saying privileges. Privileges are what you are allowed to exercise in return for your contribution to the greater good of society. But those privileges should never be allowed to interfere or endanger the greater good so their exercise must be strictly regulated.

The Constitution. This is an antiquated document that describes a system of government that has proven unsuitable to the needs of a progressive society. Unfortunately, many people have an emotional attachment to it, so it really can't be discarded. But it can be re-imagined and reinterpreted so that it can be made to allow what needs to be done, and when that isn't feasible, it should just be ignored when it gets in the way of progressive action.

Happiness may not be guaranteed, but Equality is. It is impossible to have economic equality when there is a disparity of wealth. Everyone must contribute to the greater good. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. The wealthy must pay their fair share.

Individuals are nothing without each other. We are all in this together as a society and government is the means by which society achieves its goals and distributes the wealth produced by the society to its members. Individuals contribute to the production of society, but individuals can produce nothing without society and so have no claim on what they think they produce themselves.

The problem with the other side isn't a lack of understanding, it is a lack of common values
Wow, have you ever read the founding documents? If they believed that rights were privileges granted by the government, America as you know would never have happened and you wouldn't have to worry about gun rights since you would not have any.

Perhaps you should look up the historical application of "natural rights" in conjunction with the bill of rights.
 
Alaska444 - while I share your appreciation of natural rights, and have a copy of Locke's treatise on civil government somewhere in my stuff (just moved), I think he was making a point about how the opposition views rights.
I am with you though. I am firmly convinced from the things I have read that the Founders intended the government to be limited by the Constitution rather than to have the People limited by it.
 
If they believed that rights were privileges granted by the government, America as you know would never have happened and you wouldn't have to worry about gun rights since you would not have any.

Yeah! That's exactly what they believe. That's the world view espoused in Hobbes book Leviathan I keep blathering about in all these threads.

And that's exactly how the system works. We, the minions, are incapable of rising beyond a chaotic subsistence without a powerful superior sovereign to bind us into an orderly society.

In exchange for improving our lives by giving us an orderly existence we owe the sovereign allegiance. The sovereign owes us protection and grants us privileges.

This is the fundamental transformation they want to make in America.
 
If the anti-gun folks you know are intellectual or pseudo-intellectual, they might be impressed by H.L. Hencken, the old Sage of Baltimore, and might appreciate:
H. L. Mencken, "The Uplifters Try It Again", Baltimore Sun, 30 Nov 1925.
reprinted available at: http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-25.html
Mencken skewers the arguments for gun control like shishkebob.

Or, the saga of sociologist James D. Wright, politically liberal, hired by the Carter Administration to investigate guns, crime and violence in America, whose previous writing on the subject "Demographics of Gun Control" was published in the lefty journal The Nation Nov 1975. His honest evaluation of guns, crime, violence, gun control convinced him that the common wisdom of leftwing America on the impact of gun control on criminal behavior was uncommonly wrong.
James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi and Kathleen Daly. ''Under The Gun: Weapons, Crime, And Violence In America'', Aldine, 1983, revised edition of ''Weapons, Crime, and Violence in America: A Literature Review And Research Agenda'', US DoJ research, US Government Printing Office, 1981.
 
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Part of our problem in confronting the other side, I believe, is that the other side is essentially being indoctrinated to believe that guns are evil... Not just uninteresting and unlikeable, but outright evil.

I absolutely agree with you. I think the problem runs even deeper than firearms. As you said:

I think it is safe to say that we're the last generation that grew up with any true freedom of thought in school.

This is the real issue; the anti-gun mentality is just an intentional byproduct. Growing up, my dad had guns but wasn't a "gun guy"; couple of bolt rifles, a .22 rifle, a shotgun, a .357 revolver and a .22 pistol. He died when I was 11. My mother and step father were anti-gun liberals (were being an operative word, I'll get to that), so that is the environment I grew up in during the critical years. Even still, my sister (now 29) and I formed a very different view of the world we live in and adopted a very different set of values.

I'm confident that all but two or three of the teachers I had were liberals, but they all did their jobs of teaching the material. I don't recall them putting a revisionist twist on history lessons, or cleverly crafting the English curriculum to include only liberal, progressive literature and assignments.

Now, my mother and step father are still quite liberal, but their attitude on firearms has changed. They still make my stepfather nervous, but he has come to appreciate their value and why they are necessary tools. Yes, my sister and I kept up the arduous debates, but ultimately it was a frightening incident in the back country that made them realize the utility and essential nature of the firearm, even in the 21st century. A few couples of retirement age (their horseback riding group) were no match for a rowdy, angry mob of drunk men that descended on their camp, threatening the people with knives and clubs, vandalizing property (vehicles) and turning their horses loose. Following this, they, of their own accord, bought a 20 gauge shotgun and learned to use it with my help. They are still not shooters, they are not gun people, but they have come to understand that it can be an essential tool for preserving life and protecting property. Yes, they still vote Democrat. But they no longer support gun control measures.

Unfortunately, as MT has so articulately explained, the new breed is entirely different. Despite my mother and stepfather (and most of my family) being liberal Democrats, they still believe in the American ideal. They are hard workers, they don't believe in exploiting government programs, and they are pro personal freedom. They are more the classic liberal, the Kennedy Democrats. Still, they are unable for some reason to divorce themselves from the modern party, even though it has forsaken their kind.

This new breed is not just anti-gun. They are anti-America. I envy those who have passed or are in their golden years now, because they won't have to watch what unfolds from here. We are at the tipping point, I think. The next couple of decades will decide the fate of our nation. I hope America is still the land of the free and the home of the brave when my children's children are grandparents themselves, but I fear that it may not be even for the remainder of my natural life. But I have not given up, and I never will.
 
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