For anti gun folks you know

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Alaska444, as Goon noted, what I described is not what I believe, it is what the progressives I have encountered believe.

I have read the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, The Constiution, the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, I have read Grotius, Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau, as well as more modern authors on the subjects of natural rights and the social contract. If you have more suggestions for my reading list, please feel free to suggest them.
 
But I don't think I am on board with libertarian philosophy on environmental protection through private land ownership. The private land owner adjacent to my family's home is currently having its land strip mined. It is a company, not a person. These people don't live on the land. They don't care how it looks or what the environmental impact is - their pollution will never poison their children. The blasting shakes my parents' house hard enough that things have fallen off the shelves. They are rural poor and no one cares about them. No rich landowner or corporate executive will ever show up on their porch with an apology and a check.

Goon, exercising one's rights to the detriment of another is the antithesis of libertarian values. Honestly, that paradigm is a liberal one at it's core; Think eminent domain, etc.

The libertarian belief system is absolute liberty, which would be that the owners of this land are free to do as they wish with it to the extent that it does not infringe on your rights or anyone elses. If the strip mining operation is damaging your parent's personal property and endangering them with toxic chemicals, then it has to stop. The strip mining they are doing is benefitting the greater good, at your family's detriment.

The libertarian ideal would not necessarily preclude the intrusive strip mining, but it would require that the people doing the mining must come to an agreement with those they are negatively impacting. Either they need to perform their operations in such a way that it does not interfere with your family's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, or they need to find an agreeable compensation for tolerating the encroachment. If your parents decide that this company paying X-amount of dollars to them reasonably offsets Y amount of disruption to their world, then it is an acceptable contract to both. If no agreement can be reached, then the group doing the infringing loses.

Personal freedom and community are not mutually exclusive ideals. They can work in perfect harmony, but it requires thoughtful, considerate individuals. You see it in small towns and rural areas, such as the one I live in. We are fiercely independent out here, but the sense of community is also strong. Neighbors are respectful of each other, and pull together when it benefits all, but we leave each other in peace.

Take my business. I run it on my own property, which, like many home based businesses out here, I am not technically zoned to do with this type of business. But I have met with the county officials, and as long as I am respectful of the community I live in by keeping noise down, keeping the property clean and not interfering with public easements, they will not attempt to shut me down. So I am able to run a business that benefits me personally with income, benefits the immediate community with convenience and low cost services, and benefits the larger community with revenue. So, as demonstrated, I can exercise my personal freedoms to the extent that they do not infringe on others, and it benefits everyone while harming no one in any way.

This is what the founders intended, but many today are too selfish or too lazy to handle it. The results are disastrous. This is what must be fixed. I hope it can be.
 
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Never underestimate the intense ideological commitment and ruthlessness of the gun control & confiscation clique.

Private gun ownership is not viewed so much as an "evil" in the way that world religions define the term, but rather a scourge that ought to have no place in a "refined" and "civilized" society.
 
The libertarian belief system is absolute liberty, ... to the extent that it does not infringe on your rights or anyone elses.

From this statement, it would appear that "absolute liberty" is not, after all, absolute and only extends so far. Defining the limits of that extent is where the difficulty is. Also, defining just what constitutes a right. Anything can be claimed as a right, but does the claim make it so? I recently saw a claim that Christians have a right not to see gay people. Progressives claim a right to be free from fear of firearms. These "rights" are claimed. Do they exist? Can anyone point to a definitive, exhaustive, enumeration of rights and their extent. When there is disagreement, who decides?

When it comes down to it, it is the people, collectively as a society, who decide what rights an individual may exercise within that society. This decision may be reflected in a foundational document such as the US Constitution, or it may be just a matter of respect for custom and precedent as in the UK. These rights and their exercise are further defined by law through the vehicle of government. The court system is the official arbiter of rights and the principle of jury nullification places the final decision back in the hands of the people (or at least, 12 of them).

But it is important to note that the rights that are acceptable to a society change over time. and depend the collective perception of what rights are useful or detrimental to that society. The rights that are today supported by society may be swept away tomorrow.
 
Alaska444 - while I share your appreciation of natural rights, and have a copy of Locke's treatise on civil government somewhere in my stuff (just moved), I think he was making a point about how the opposition views rights.
I am with you though. I am firmly convinced from the things I have read that the Founders intended the government to be limited by the Constitution rather than to have the People limited by it.
Good point, it was late when I read the post. Thank you for the correction.
 
Sorry, read it wrong. Thank you and it looks like you have covered the reading assignment over the summer well.:what:
 
From this statement, it would appear that "absolute liberty" is not, after all, absolute and only extends so far. Defining the limits of that extent is where the difficulty is. Also, defining just what constitutes a right. Anything can be claimed as a right, but does the claim make it so? I recently saw a claim that Christians have a right not to see gay people. Progressives claim a right to be free from fear of firearms. These "rights" are claimed. Do they exist? Can anyone point to a definitive, exhaustive, enumeration of rights and their extent. When there is disagreement, who decides?

When it comes down to it, it is the people, collectively as a society, who decide what rights an individual may exercise within that society. This decision may be reflected in a foundational document such as the US Constitution, or it may be just a matter of respect for custom and precedent as in the UK. These rights and their exercise are further defined by law through the vehicle of government. The court system is the official arbiter of rights and the principle of jury nullification places the final decision back in the hands of the people (or at least, 12 of them).

But it is important to note that the rights that are acceptable to a society change over time. and depend the collective perception of what rights are useful or detrimental to that society. The rights that are today supported by society may be swept away tomorrow.
The only retort I have to that is God never changes and He is the author of all natural rights protected in the constitution.

I do agree that society changes and those that don't acknowledge our God given rights are very likely to have them taken away yet the natural rights themselves still remain for those who will claim them and acknowledge them. But as you pointed out correctly, society will determine for themselves their own rights. God have mercy on us when they do.
 
In my experience, progressives either or, or are becoming, increasingly agnostic or atheist. Which makes arguing that natural rights are God-given rather difficult. To them, if rights are given by God, and there is no God, then there are no rights to be bothered with.
 
In my experience, progressives either or, or are becoming, increasingly agnostic or atheist. Which makes arguing that natural rights are God-given rather difficult. To them, if rights are given by God, and there is no God, then there are no rights to be bothered with.
I don't disagree, yet I believe God still has His say in all of this as well. Indeed, the fact that America is turning away from its Christian origins is at the heart of all of the changes we see today.
 
It is perfectly reasonable to arrive at the conclusion that man has certain rights from a philosophical process, as I believe and, no doubt, others believe as well.
 
Solo, yes, that is perfectly reasonable. Reason is how the Founders came to recognize the validity of natural rights.

It is well to recall that the Founders were mainly neither atheists nor theists, but deists. Deism holds that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a Creator (often referred to as "Divine Providence"), accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge. By extension, deists held that the Creator created the universe and ordained the natural laws by which it functions with the intent that it function according to those natural laws without supernatural intervention. Thus, Man is left to use Reason to recognize and follow these laws as they demonstrate the intent of the Creator (will of God).

Deism was predominant during the Age of Reason which reached its heights at the 18th century but was tarnished extensively by the excesses of the French Revolution. In the early 19th century, Deism went into a slow decline to be replaced by naturalism and materialism which were atheistic in nature and Christian revivalism which taught a more personal relationship with God.

It is possible to postulate the existence of natural rights without postulating a Creator to grant them, but that is not how the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution is framed which is the point I was making.
 
Aaaaand, that's the last we'll hear about any religion here in this thread.

We're all in this together: diests, athiests, christians, muslims, buddhists, hindus (hindis?), taoists, shinto(ese?), wiccans, and so on and so forth. Your faith may be of great importance in your life (as mine is in my own life), and you may find great courage and guidance in your scripture, but you won't do it here.

We're a gun board. We talk about shooting and gun rights. And we welcome everyone, including folks from > 160 countries every month that are not the United States, and we won't have a divisive topic like religion get between us.

We tried religious talk here for half a decade. We disallowed it for a reason. Let's remember why, take a breath, and stay on topic.
 
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From this statement, it would appear that "absolute liberty" is not, after all, absolute and only extends so far.

I suppose that depends on if you're looking at it only from your perspective, or the perspective of all involved. Again, your rights end where mine begin, and vise-versa. I have the right to do whatever makes me happy, to the extent that it does not impede you from doing what makes you happy or infringe on your right to life & liberty. If it makes me happy to cover myself in green jello and dance naked to Beethoven, that is part of my right to pursuit of happiness, so long as as I do it in a manner that does not force you to watch or be otherwise negatively impacted by it, taking away your right to pursuit of happiness.

Yes, society does get to set certain standards for what is acceptable, especially in public, and the litmus test for this should be along the lines that arbitrary things that you do that benefit no one and detrimentally affect the public are not acceptable; public nudity is deemed unacceptable most places because it will offend most, and does not benefit the actor. You do not have a right to be naked in public, and they do not have a right to not be offended. In such a case, we accept that what makes the nudist happy pretty well makes everyone else unhappy, and so we disallow it.

If prohibiting you from doing something that simply offends the public will infringe on your constitutional rights, then we don't prohibit it (freedom of speech) unless it infringes on the enumerated rights of others (The fire in a theatre example).

Defining the limits of that extent is where the difficulty is.

See above. The libertarian view is not one of lawlessness, anarchy. There are still things that we can deem unacceptable as a society and prohibit their being done without curtailing liberty. But once more, this is where it can get tricky on account of lazy, disrespectful people. The concept is simple, the execution less so.

Also, defining just what constitutes a right

For that, I defer to the constitution of the United States of America.

Anything can be claimed as a right, but does the claim make it so?

Full circle back to it's your right until it infringes on someone else's.

I recently saw a claim that Christians have a right not to see gay people.

Well, they do, to the extent that their desire not to see them is overridden by the homosexual person's right to exist freely within public and private places that accept the lifestyle. So they can close their eyes or stay in places where the homosexual will not venture. A church, being private property, may be able to prohibit homosexuals. But in public, his/her right to liberty is greater than their right to not be offended by his/her presence.

Progressives claim a right to be free from fear of firearms. These "rights" are claimed. Do they exist?

Same as above. Within their own home or on private property where all rights short of the right to life and liberty (read-not being imprisoned, assaulted, etc) are suspended, they do have a right to be free of their irrational fear. But once again, there is no right to not be afraid, but there is a right to keep and bear arms, so in public, the god given and constitutionally enumerated right wins.

Can anyone point to a definitive, exhaustive, enumeration of rights and their extent. When there is disagreement, who decides?

Our constitution enumerates the rights that are not to be infringed. From there, once again, it's to the extent that you don't infringe on others. And as I said, there is some room for society to determine which rights would be nullified by negative impact on society, etc. But those enumerated in the constitution are not to be infringed upon, period, unless the person exercising them demonstrates that he cannot do so safely, thus depriving others of those enumerated rights. Right to bear arms is absolute, but I think everyone can agree that the limit of that right does not extend to recklessness with a deadly weapon, such as firing randomly in a crowded place. The right is not "to discharge arms in any place, at any time and in any manner the possessor desires". It is the right to bear arms, and unless you exercise that right in a way that endangers others, it is not to be called into question.

When it comes down to it, it is the people, collectively as a society, who decide what rights an individual may exercise within that society. This decision may be reflected in a foundational document such as the US Constitution, or it may be just a matter of respect for custom and precedent as in the UK. These rights and their exercise are further defined by law through the vehicle of government. The court system is the official arbiter of rights and the principle of jury nullification places the final decision back in the hands of the people (or at least, 12 of them).

Exactly. The problem is that we've arrived at a point where a certain group would restrict our rights without cause. There has to be a reason. I have never demonstrated a danger to society, and so they have no cause to restrict my right to bear arms. Yet they are doing it. They are circumventing the constitution and due process, and it cannot be tolerated.


But it is important to note that the rights that are acceptable to a society change over time. and depend the collective perception of what rights are useful or detrimental to that society. The rights that are today supported by society may be swept away tomorrow.

Times do change, new issues arise. Regardless, some rights are absolute and timeless. Our government is presently depriving people of their right to life and liberty without due process, and we cannot accept this.
 
Our government began depriving us of liberty without due process almost from the very beginning. And over the years, we have come to accept more and more of this deprivation. The government we have have now would not have been accepted 100 years ago, and the government we had 100 years ago would not have been accepted 200 years ago. As I said, times change.
 
Aaaaand, that's the last we'll hear about any religion here in this thread.

We're all in this together: diests, athiests, christians, muslims, buddhists, hindus (hindis?), taoists, shinto(ese?), wiccans, and so on and so forth. Your faith may be of great importance in your life (as mine is in my own life), and you may find great courage and guidance in your scripture, but you won't do it here.

We're a gun board. We talk about shooting and gun rights. And we welcome everyone, including folks from > 160 countries every month that are not the United States, and we won't have a divisive topic like religion get between us.

We tried religious talk here for half a decade. We disallowed it for a reason. Let's remember why, take a breath, and stay on topic.
No problem, but I thought I was reflecting historical truths from the MA state constitution of 1780 which is a political and historical document. I understand the reluctance to engage in religious talk, but my intent was to show the historical context.

Thank you, Alaska444
 
In my experience, progressives either or, or are becoming, increasingly agnostic or atheist. Which makes arguing that natural rights are God-given rather difficult. To them, if rights are given by God, and there is no God, then there are no rights to be bothered with.

I'm agnostic and I look at it this way, when referring to god given rights: "god given rights" refer to rights that everyone has simply because they are human. If you are a person, then you have fundamental, inalienable rights.

IMO, the reason why the founding fathers defined God Given Rights was to establish a set of rights that the government cannot touch.
 
The anti-gun liberal types I find most often on the internet from all around the world all say that rights are just what the government says we can have. :uhoh:
 
The anti-gun liberal types I find most often on the internet from all around the world all say that rights are just what the government says we can have. :uhoh:

Wasn't it Mao who said power, and I suppose thereby rights, come from the barrel of a gun. Hence the overarching desire to control the fount of rights.
 
Free from a fear of firearms? What if someone claims to be afraid of dogs, or homosexuals, or people whose race differs from his own?

The claim of a right to be free from something because the claimant is afraid of that thing is a bogus claim. Freedom from fear is in the same category as freedom from want. Progressives would have us believe that no person can truly be free as long as he wants something he does not have, because that want enslaves him, or as long as he has fear of something someone else has, because that fear enslaves him.

The trouble is, there's no way to appease those fears and wants without depriving someone else. To a progressive, however, taking something from one person to appease another is not wrong in any way as long as the thing of which one person is deprived is something another person either wants or fears. Let that cycle continue long enough, and we will have a society in which everyone is either a slave to that system or a ruler in that system. The rulers will neither fear nor give a lick for the slaves. They won't need to, because the slaves will have been disarmed.
 
To a progressive, however, taking something from one person to appease another is not wrong in any way as long as the thing of which one person is deprived is something another person either wants or fears.

Just tell that progressive you want the government's power and you're afraid of them. Watch the argument they thought they had unravel. It's actually rather amusing.
 
I'm agnostic and I look at it this way, when referring to god given rights: "god given rights" refer to rights that everyone has simply because they are human. If you are a person, then you have fundamental, inalienable rights.

IMO, the reason why the founding fathers defined God Given Rights was to establish a set of rights that the government cannot touch.
THR does not allow discussions on religion, but in short, that is not at all what the founders noted nor is it what is contained especially in the State constitutions. God given meant just that to that generation. A simple review of those historical documents will make that clear.
 
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