For gunsmiths : how practical is an RFID driven safety?

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Habeed

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After reading about another tragic shooting death because one party thought the other was attempting to grab his gun, it's occurred to me that if you could build a handgun that could not be fired by an unauthorized party, it would be much safer to have.

So I propose the following mechansim :

The firearm user would have one of these implanted in their palm. It's safe and removable and can be inserted by a tattoo artist. The more advanced tags support encryption, so someone cannot clone your tag.

The weapon would have a grip safety switch similar to that on a glock. Upon closing the switch, this would power up the electronics, which would be powered by a long shelf life, non-rechargeable, Lion battery similar to that used in pacemakers. The electronics would use a custom chip that would be able to start, interrogate the encrypted tag, and verify identity within 50 milliseconds.

A servo motor would retract a safety pin, and the weapon would be ready to fire. The battery charge level would be monitored. In the event that the battery is below a certain level of charge, the safety pin would be retracted permanently until the battery is replaced - basically, a depleted battery should result in the weapon able to fire regardless of user.

If the electronics are of similar grade to those used in pacemakers, the odds are very high they'll work. The servo could be designed with parallel windings and parallel motor drivers and other techniques to minimize the chance that it fails to work.

Finally, in a modern glock handgun, aren't there already a bunch of small mechanical parts that need to function correctly or the weapon will fail? Despite the complexity, the glocks are considered reliable enough to use. Some high quality electronics and a well designed servo shouldn't cause a significant increase in the chance of failure, should it?

Would you ever consider such a firearm if it were proven to be highly reliable?
 
How about we just teach all the numpties in the world to not attempt to touch someone else's weapon?

I can imagine several scenarios where a RFID implant could fail. That's not even mentioning the fact that they've been shown to cause cancer at injection site for pets who have been "chipped".
 
In your example, how would an electronic lock have prevented the shooting?

What if you injure your hand and need to shoot with your weak hand during a fight?

What if that 12mm glass tube in your palm breaks? Glass inside your hand? A fall, a fight, maybe just working out with weights can break or dislodge that.

What if that glass tube migrates inside your body and isn't in range of the firearm right when you need it?

What if you are wearing gloves?

What if I steal your gun and Just pop the battery?

You think there is a grip safety on a Glock? You think Glock handguns have complicated internals? Have you ever held a Glock before? Do you have any real familiarity with handguns?
 
In your example, how would an electronic lock have prevented the shooting?

What if you injure your hand and need to shoot with your weak hand during a fight?

What if that 12mm glass tube in your palm breaks? Glass inside your hand? A fall, a fight, maybe just working out with weights can break or dislodge that.

What if that glass tube migrates inside your body and isn't in range of the firearm right when you need it?

What if you are wearing gloves?

What if I steal your gun and Just pop the battery?

You think there is a grip safety on a Glock? You think Glock handguns have complicated internals? Have you ever held a Glock before? Do you have any real familiarity with handguns?
CWL : I'm not sure if you're trolling or seriously replying.

If you need to shoot with your weak hand, you have an implant in there or you use your injured hand within twelve inches in the weaver stance.

The tube isn't going to break - it has very high compressive strength, and would require forces that would shatter all the bones in your hand in order to break it.

It isn't likely to migrate, either, if it is implanted properly.

It will work through non-metallic gloves - have you ever used an RFID tag before? They work from about 12 inches and activate instantly and reliably.

"popping" the battery requires complete disassembly and reassembly and tools - it would be sized to operate the safety thousands of times and would not be field replaceable.

Here's a glock. I see what looks like a switch there, and it looks like it has a decent amount of travel.

This looks like a lot of parts. Adding the RFID safety servo is adding a single additional mechanical part to that mess of small parts. It does not seem likely that this will affect the reliability by very much, but I'm not a gunsmith. Have you ever opened up a gun before?
 
Well, I worked on the initial R&D and introduction of RFID technologies globally in the late 1990's and early 2000s. I might know a thing or two about RFID and near field technologies. I know that you don't understand the requirements to maintain a reliable passive reader environment and deal with issues with shielding. I do know that you don't know what you're talking about.

It is also obvious that you don't have any experience nor have any understanding of basic firearms mechanics.

Go ahead and keep looking at pictures of handguns on the internet, I'll go back to disassembling and reassembling my firearms.
 
Well, I worked on the initial R&D and introduction of RFID technologies globally in the late 1990's and early 2000s. I might know a thing or two about RFID and near field technologies. I know that you don't understand the requirements to maintain a reliable passive reader environment and deal with issues with shielding. I do know that you don't know what you're talking about.

It is also obvious that you don't have any experience nor have any understanding of basic firearms mechanics.

Go ahead and keep looking at pictures of handguns on the internet, I'll go back to disassembling and reassembling my firearms.
CWL, are you an engineer? Do you understand what electromagnetic induction is? A passive reader? What are you talking about. The reader is actively powered by a high current battery....

CWL, were you in the army? If not, well, sorry, but I probably have more firearms experience. With that said, I did not use handguns which is why I addressed this thread to gunsmiths experienced with them.
 
'Smart Guns' that only allow the owner to use them have been tried and discarded over & over & over again for the past 60+ years.
Or longer?

From Magnetic rings, to finger-print recognition more recently.

It has been a goal of a couple of political agendas in the past.
And also the present one.
And the downfall of a couple of big companies that tried to cater to the government leaders in power at the time.

Knowledgable gun people won't buy them on a bet!
Let alone getting an RFID chip implanted in their body!

Many Gun folks wear tin-foil hats to keep the flying saucers, black helicopters, & NSA spy satellites from reading their thoughts.
I'm not quite that crazy, yet.

But, try to Inject an RFID capsule under my skin so I can use one of my 50+ gun collection?

Oh Hell No Son!

rc
 
As far as I know, implantable RFID is the first technology that has

1. cryptographic security. Magnetic rings and fingerprints can easily be duplicated.

2. High reliability. I've never seen an RFID reader fail, even from 12 inches through body parts, clothing, and so on. This is because magnetic fields go through almost all materials.

3. Instant access. RFID tags can be read in a fraction of a second. Fingerprint scanners take time and have to deal with smearing and other factors.

Look at it this way. Most officers are killed by their own gun. How many cops are killed because they couldn't fire? I suspect even if the devices occasionally failed, the number of lives saved would exceed any lost to cops with dud weapons.
 
I first thought you were a kid, now I'm sure you're just a troll who doesn't like when people disagree with you.

You don't know what you are talking about, neither firearms nor RFID/near field technologies. You simply "don't know that you don't know".
 
Most officers are killed by their own gun.

That isn't true. If you think it is true, produce some facts. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

In the first post in this thread you mention a "tragic shooting". Do you think all shootings are tragic?

I am not sure why you think smart gun technology would stop this sort of shooting. Let's work through the scenario.

Smart gun owner perceives that actor is attempting to take her gun away. She has a choice:

A) attempt to prevent disarmament. May include shooting actor.

B) accept disarmament.

Smart gun owner thinks, "my gun is Special so it can't be used against me. I'll choose B!"

Actor strikes Smart gun owner in head with taken firearm, rapes her, dumps gasoline on her still living body, lights her on fire. She dies in agony.

Outcome: No "tragic shooting", a win for opponents of gun violence.

Sound good to you?
 
He doesn't know it, but he's probably incorporated someone's numbers that include LEO suicides as part of firearms violence statistics.
 
No way inn hell I'd buy such a gun unless it were the only one in the market and I had to fill a void after all my currently owned guns were lost in the fabled tragic boating accident. Any gun beats no gun, but given a choice, I'd never come within a mile of a such a gun.
 
Habeed said:
CWL, were you in the army? If not, well, sorry, but I probably have more firearms experience.
With this statement, you lose any and all credibility you might have had.

Being in the military doesn't make you anything close to a firearms expert. Depending on your MOS, you might get some good experience handling weapons, but unless you're an armorer, the military isn't going to teach you very much about how firearms actually work. And even then, the average civilian gunsmith will have a lot more general firearms knowledge than your average military armorer.

People often make the mistake of assuming that military experience equals firearms knowledge, when that's rarely the case. I've met far more firearms experts in the civilian world than I ever did in the Marine Corps infantry.
 
Habeed said:
With that said, I did not use handguns
Which means your attempt to pull the "military card" in this discussion is completely pointless considering you admit the Army didn't teach you anything about handguns.
 
Level three retention holsters and magazine disconnect safeties achieve the same result, are far simpler, and don't require surgical implants to operate.
 
And since this is a gunsmithing question it's been moved to that forum.
 
He doesn't know it, but he's probably incorporated someone's numbers that include LEO suicides as part of firearms violence statistics.
Maybe, but if anyone is curious the actual stats look something like this:

"In 2012, 48 law enforcement officers died from injuries incurred in the line of duty during felonious incidents. ... 1 officer was killed with his/her own weapon."
-- http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...lled/felonious_topic_page_-2012#disablemobile

"In 2011, 72 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. ... 3 officers were killed with their own weapons."
-- http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...eloniously-killed/officers-feloniously-killed

"In 2010, 56 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. ... 7 officers were killed with their own weapons."

2009: 48, 2
2008: 41, 4
2007: 57, 2

So it hovers around 4%, which is decidedly NOT "most".
 
habeed said:
If the electronics are of similar grade to those used in pacemakers, the odds are very high they'll work.

Don't let facts or research slow you down!

Have you priced a pacemaker lately? They're typically just over $20,000 just for the pacemaker, not including doctor and hospital costs. A Glock cost about $500. But just for the heck of it, let's say you can get pacemaker level electronic reliability in a gun for $10,000. We'll call it a "Crock".

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/medtronic-warns-higher-pacemaker-failure-rates/2009-05-20

Medical devicemaker Medtronic has sent out a letter warning doctors that it found a higher rate of failure in its Kappa and Sigma brand pacemakers than it had originally predicted.

The company is predicting that just over 1 percent of Kappa and just under 5 percent of Sigma pacemakers will fail over their remaining estimated lifetime. These failures are caused by separation of wires connecting the electronic circuit to pacemaker components such as the battery or connector, Medtronic said.

Once you've purchased your Crock for $10,000, would you be satisfied having to accept a 1 in 20 chance (5 percent failure rate) that your handgun won't work if you need it to save your wife or kid's life?

That's a 5% failure rate on something IMPLANTED in your body, which is NOT subjected to the bangs, bumps, recoil forces, temperature extremes, and cleaning solvents that a gun carried in a holster sees almost every day.
 
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It has been a goal of a couple of political agendas in the past.
And also the present one.
It has indeed been pushed by the antis before, and it read just like your post.

And a chip implanted in me? Not no, but hell no. :)
 
How do you plan to replace the millions of handguns already in the hands of their owners?
 
Habeed said:
...Here's a glock. I see what looks like a switch there, and it looks like it has a decent amount of travel.

This looks like a lot of parts.....

No and no. That gun in the first link is not a Glock. It is a Springfield Armory XD. And the second picture shows a disassembled Glock with the comparatively small number of parts in that design as compared to other semi-auto handguns.
 
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