RFID gun safe or gun lock?

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Habeed

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This idea has been kicked around a few times. Basically, they now make surgically implantable RFID tags. They are a little glass capsule about the size of a grain of rice containing an antenna and microchip, and they are probably safe for human use. It's an extremely minor surgery to get one implanted in your hand.

I'm sure many of you have used RFID cards to get into a building : those big grey access plates. They work great : I've always found the reader/ ID cards to be highly reliable. Problems only occur when the central server running those access plates goes down.

So it's not much of a stretch to imagine a gun safe with such an access method. You could have the best compromise of accessibility versus security. You could keep an RFID pistol safe inches from where you sleep, maybe under the bed or inside a nightstand. Inside the safe would be a pistol with a round in the chamber, attached accessories like lights and extra mags, etc. You'd be ready to rock in just a second...just reach your hand towards the door of the safe, and when it gets within 6 inches or so the battery backup-ed RFID reader would recognize the tag in your hand and unlock it. Could have another, bigger safe with carbines and shotguns in your armoire or closet, similarly ready for action.

With the latest encrypted RFID tags, the chance would be remote that anyone could gain access without actually cutting the safe.

Of course, a safe is kind of bulky, especially in your car or something. There are prototype firearms that have the RFID reader and power source integrated into the weapon itself. A gun that only you (or someone with the RFID tag) can fire. There's potential problems with that approach, though...it's hard to fit an adequate battery and a robust server mechanism into a pistol or shotgun, so the RFID safety might be kind of unreliable.

However, nothing like this appears to be for sale, yet. What do you gentlemen think of the idea in general, if it were voluntary?

(I'm aware that the antis out there want such an integrated locking mechanism to be mandatory, and guns without it made illegal. They'd also want the chip in the gun to keep an access log to record who's ID tag fired the weapon at what time of day)
 
My first thought was, "what if your wife needs the gun?" But I imagine you'd be able to key more than one RFID tag to the safe. I'm not sure if the advantages are significant enough to justify the presumably higher cost. It might make sense as part of a whole-house RFID security makeover.
 
For a safe, we're talking tens of dollars worth of electronics. It won't raise the cost of a safe much, once RFID tag safes actually become mass produced.

And yeah, a whole house RFID security makeover sounds great. You could install those 'auto close' things on your house's doors, and have them auto-lock. Could have your front gate secured this way, the door leading from your garage, the bedroom door, the front and back doors, etc. The key is to have a plan for what to do when one of the systems fails. There should be at least 2 doors going into anything critical, with separate readers and battery backups. There shouldn't be a central server that would bring everything down upon failure. It should always be possible to get out even if nothing works. Etc.

A dog might be a lot cheaper, although the problem is that dogs bark at everything (VERY high % of false alarms), smell bad, need constant maintenance, etc.
 
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I do not like the idea of the government implanting chips in my body. I read a book a little while ago called Spychips that confirmed my distrust of the idea.
 
RFIDs have been FDA approved to be implanted in humans for the last several years.

US Passports now have RFIDs embeded in them.

H&K and SIG embed RFIDs in firearms they manufacture for the US government/military.

In the UK, RFIDs are implanted in mental patients and certain classess of people to keep track of them.

A few credit card companies and some resorts in the EU, are looking at allowing customers to have RFIDs embeded in them. Which will allow them to use their credit (by having their hand/arm scanned) at said resorts in the EU.

Saudia Arabia is looking at embeding RFIDs in all foriegners that enter their country as a way to track them/keep an eye on them.
 
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just because something is FDA approved does not mean that it cannot at some point cause you trouble
 
I don't like the idea. To each his own.
I really don't like the idea of putting these electronics into firearms. A safe might be ok but putting these electronics into firearms opens up a whole new realm of gun registration and bans.
Once a "Smart Gun" is proven reliable and put on the market you will see some states move to ban the sale of all handguns without this technology. CA and NY come to mind.
Some of us have guns that have been passed down from family members. Others are shooting guns from the WWII or earlier. How long will a microchip last? How much water, solvent and oil can it take before failing. Recoil? When will this chip be obsolete and be irreplacable when it fails? What about the battery? How long will the batteries be in production before they too are obsolete?
If I were an anti gun politician I would push for (and fund) research into smart guns. Once they were on the market I would ban the sale of all weapons without this technology. I might allow the older guns to be grandfathered in but probably not. I would then require the batteries and microchips for these weapons to be sold to FFL holders only. Only gunsmiths would be allowed to legally change the chips or batteries. This would add another layer of paperwork.
Oh yeah, the police would have a device to block or drown out the signal that unlocks the guns. We currently can block cell phone signals and the military is using similiar tech to block the signals to IED's in Iraq.
Some of this may be paranoia but most of it is in the realm of possibility.
 
Here is the basic idea, granted, they're hotel in-room safes:
http://www.elsafe.com/page?id=4376
http://www.elsafe.com/page?id=3976

Granted they appear to be using Active RFID tags, which require a power source, so implanting is probably not an option, its at least a starting point.

Truth be told, I'm not too fond of the "implanted chip" method of securing anything, aside from most of the implantable ones being easily cloned, I'd be more worried about getting something lopped off so someone could access a resource protected by an implanted chip. ^_^
 
I don't like the idea. To each his own.
I really don't like the idea of putting these electronics into firearms. A safe might be ok but putting these electronics into firearms opens up a whole new realm of gun registration and bans.
I don't think anyone's using them like that right now. I think it's mainly an inventory control thing, kind of like a more compact, concealed UPC code so the armorers can account for the weapons by waving a wand rather than reading and manually writing all the serial numbers.
 
How do you get to your protection when electro magnetic pulses (sun spots) screw up your electronics?
 
I don't like the idea of people being terrified of technology.
You misunderstand me. I do not fear technology. I merely distrust the intentions of government when it comes to anything this potentially powerful.
 
Uhmmm why? There is no way i'm going to put the tool needed to potentially save my families life in a safe that requires a chip implanted.

I'm not an overly religious person however that just reeks of the whole mark of the beast concept to me.
 
It doesn't have to be in your palm...could get it implanted in your forearm or elbow or something.

Yeah it does kind of sound like the mark of the beast...
 
You misunderstand me. I do not fear technology. I merely distrust the intentions of government when it comes to anything this potentially powerful.

You are the only person in this thread talking about the government planting anything in anyone. OP is talking about voluntarily putting a tag in your hand in order to open a safe. Not so you can be tracked, not to give any information other than an unlock code.

It doesn't have to be in your palm...could get it implanted in your forearm or elbow or something.
Yeah, but it'd probably be easiest and most reliable in terms of activating the safe if the tag were in your hand.
 
I really doubt RFID chips will be used for anything requiring high security. They are WAY too easy to clone.
 
I don't like the idea of people being terrified of technology.

I don't like the idea of people who are suspicious of technology being accused of being terrified of technology.

Don't get me wrong, technology is great, but it's not infallible. Just look at telephones. The earliest telephones were fantastic for fishing, and they have just gone downhill since then. :neener:
 
JES : newer chips cannot be cloned using known methods. Newer chips have a tiny microprocessor, and they have a secret key stored inside them that is shared with the device that they are programmed to open. (that is, only the chip in the safe and the chip in your hand would know what the secret key is). A different challenge : response pair is generated each time you use the key...it would not be possible to determine what the secret key is without opening and closing the device the RFID controls millions of times, and a delay can be inserted to make this impossible.

In plain English : no, this type of RFID is not cloneable using any technology known to man.
 
It could work from a technological perspective.

However, RFID requires a transmitter/receiver source - which is subject to interference, power failure, and electronic component failure. It might be great as a key fob in your pocket/purse for opening/starting your car and if it fails so what - you either use your key or call roadside assistance. If RFID fails in a life & death situation...well...

Keep in mind, even the biometric quick-access firearm lock boxes have a key/combo backup. Also, what if someone other than yourself needed access to the firearm(s)? As for a chip implant, I doubt many folks will be willing to do that.

I for one like my firearms simple. Many of us also avoid integrated firearm locks like the plague. Complexity and over engineering leads to additional points of failure.


Habeed

RFID gun safe or gun lock?
 
In the UK, RFIDs are implanted in mental patients and certain classess of people to keep track of them.

This is the scariest statement on THR. No one (including myself) will EVER implant an RFID in my body regardless of the reason.
 
Cloning would not be a primary concern. If someone wanted to gain access to your firearms, a 1/2 ton safe would do better than a steel cabinet utilizing RFID technology.

A larger concern would be bad guys preventing you from accessing or even utilizing your firearms, in the case of integrated RFID locking mechanisms. I worked for a company dealing with RF technologies and it is quite easy to jam RF signals, especially when you know what frequency the technology uses.




Habeed
JES : newer chips cannot be cloned using known methods. Newer chips have a tiny microprocessor, and they have a secret key stored inside them that is shared with the device that they are programmed to open. (that is, only the chip in the safe and the chip in your hand would know what the secret key is). A different challenge : response pair is generated each time you use the key...it would not be possible to determine what the secret key is without opening and closing the device the RFID controls millions of times, and a delay can be inserted to make this impossible.

In plain English : no, this type of RFID is not cloneable using any technology known to man.
 
How do you get to your protection when electro magnetic pulses (sun spots) screw up your electronics?

Would handling magnets screw up the chip? I've read that they have electro magnetic pulse set ups for helicopters so that police can shut down a car ("newer" cars with computerized components/ignitions) in a chase.

In theory, I like the idea of opening a safe by waving a card. If you were worried about the time it takes to get your card to your safe, what about a ring with the chip in it? I hate jewelry, but I guess if I was married and I could have the chip put in my wedding band, I'd give it a shot.
 
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