For pure shooting fun, what would you choose...

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I have all three of the rifles you mention and love all of them. If I had to pick only one to have, though, it would have to be the AR. Cheap and plentiful ammo and a superb platform for optics----it's hard to go wrong with it.
 
The fascinating replies are appreciated.

I can't remember who suggested to do this, but I just visited the Tactical Forum and did a search for "AR Deficiencies." The resulting thread was 6 pages long and extraordinary. The main thread discussed reliability among the various makes and models, with Colt being the consummate choice. But, there's so much more to it than that. You really should go read this thread, if you haven't, if you are interested in the AR platform.

http://216.92.9.144/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html


As a neophyte, I am not wanting to spend money foolishly and I am sure I don't have the expertise to discern what looks good from what is good. So, do I stick with Colt and be pretty much assured of a quality product?

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For you folks that have M1's, if you procure one from the CMP do you need to send it to someone to get it tweaked before it's safe to shoot or are they ready to go after cleaning? The reason for asking this is that I visited the Fulton Armory site yesterday looking at some of their offerings. Looks like they have some beautiful rifles for sale that have been carefully rebuilt. This caused me to question the rifles available straight from the CMP. Advice appreciated!

Let me confess something that really affected my choice of first centerfire rifle. I assumed that the M1 would pound the heck out of my shoulder in short time. Thinking that would be the case, I could not see the fun in taking it to the range frequently and I want a shooter! Some of you folks are hinting that that might not be the case. Anything else you might have to say about the felt recoil of this rifle would be appreciated.
 
Any of the guns listed are a blast (sorry) to shoot. Points to consider:

1. The Garand is a very historic piece.
2. The AR-15 is quite versatile and accurate.
3. The Marlin (or any .357 Carbine) is very pleasant to shoot but can handle game up through and including deer. It can also share ammo with a like-calibered revolver, if you have one.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of these choices.
 
As far as AR15 brand - I wouldn't worry too much about whether it's a colt or not. Assuming you have a quality gun (which any Colt, Bushy, Armalite, Rock River is going to be) the real keys of AR reliability are:

Lube - if you don't lube the weapon, it's not going to function. It doesn't need to be perfectly clean, but if it's dry inside you are probably going to have trouble.

Ammo - Stick with milspec ammo. Some people have good luck with other types, some don't. If you stick with Federal XM-193 or Win Q3131A you know you are getting quality - if you get some other ammo that isn't loaded strong enough it's not going to fully cycle the weapon.

Mags - Stick with USGI aluminum mags and put the current green follower in them.

With my Bushmaster I have NEVER had a failure when using USGI mags and XM193 or Q3131A over a few thousand rounds and these were fired in snowing condition, raining conditions, rolling in the dirt at a carbine match etc. The only times I had problems were with non-USGI mags and ammo.

So getting back to brand, I'd get the one that has the features you are looking for (in terms of barrel, twist, chamber, reciever etc).
 
Basically, what KW says about ARs...

Personally, I would first pick a Doublestar or Rock River Arms rifle, followed closely by Bushmaster, with the rest further down the line. Actually, Colt would be pretty far down the line (for a number of reasons).

But that's just me. My experiences may be different from those of others, although probably not that different (for example, if you check out comments about this kind of thing on AR15.com).

Whatever you end up getting, have fun. And all three types of rifles you mention are fun...
 
I would pay close attention to what was said in that thread on tactical forums. I know at least one of those guys who posted on that thread personally and they arn't casual shooters. There is far more experience in that thread than everyone on here combined. Just a word to the wise.

History: The M1 rifle is certainly something of history, however to me, the M16/AR15 has more history behind it. First of all, it has been in service by our military for a longer period of time, and has been used by a number of other countries who actually used them extensively in combat. In addition they are used by many other agencies on a daily basis. However, since this history is on-going it probably doesn't seem as romantic as a rifle that left the service 50 years ago.
The CMP M1s are ready to go, right out of the box assuming you buy a service grade rifle. The rack grade rifles have more wear on the barrel throat and chamber, but certainly will provide you with many hours of shooting pleasure without any additional expense. The rifles from these third party companies bascially look better and they may have some accuracy work done to them such as new barrels, trigger jobs, or possibly bedding. The stocks are new, the metal has been refinished. The rifles from the CMP come just as they were issued to the troops. The stocks have dings in them, both from use and storage. The metal parts may have the finish wearing thin. Being military rifles, the parts may not match as to their manufacturer. But, again, they are rifles that were actually issued to troops and are in that condition. I have only heard of a few cases where the rifle didn't function mechanically and those problems were immediately corrected by the CMP. If you want a rifle to shoot, those are great. I have three of them.
I guess I am not the right guy to ask about recoil. I am not some kind of tough guy, but I never gave recoil a whole lot of thought other than the most extreme cases which are way beyond anything we are discussing here. The M1 rifle provides a mild push to your shoulder. Now if I walked up to you and took my hand and pushed your shoulder, do you think that is something worth getting excited over ? Is that something to spend a lot of bandwidth on the internet discussing ?
The M1 is a pretty heavy rifle. I really can't imagine that anyone would find the recoil of an M1 to be uncomfortable.
I shoot a couple matches a month that use vintage military rifles: one bolt action match and one semiauto match. In both matches we have women and children shooting major caliber rifles. We regularly have an 8 year old girl compete with a Yugo M48 rifle in 8mm Mauser. The woman that won 1st place in the women's division of last Saturday's match was shooting an M1 and she couldn't be much over 5 feet tall. None of them seem to mind it in the least. But, maybe they haven't been conditioned to believe that rifle recoil is something to be concerned about. The matches are usually 40 rounds but sometimes a little more.
One reason I hesitate to recommend the M1 rifle to casual shooters is that the M1 has no way to regulate gas flow to the operating rod. So, you need to shoot ammo that is similar to the military issue load. Shooting hotter loads or loads using heavier bullets sometimes result in a bent operating rod. In a nutshell, you may or may not be able to safely go down to Wal-Mart and buy a box of ammo to shoot in your M1. Yes, people do it. Yes, you very well might get away with it. Then again, you might not. Keep in mind this isn't a safety issue: you arn't going to get hurt doing this, but the rifle might. Likewise with handloading for the M1. It takes a little more care than handloading .30-06 for your bolt action hunting rifle. You need to size your cases correctly to avoid a slam fire since the M1 has a floating firing pin. Yes, people get away without doing this. Then again, you might not. This IS a safety issue and can result in serious personal injury. All that being said, if you shoot milsurp ammo, or ammo that is similar to milsurp ammo, you will be fine. I don't want to imply in any way that the M1 rifle is unsafe. It isn't. But, it is a little more involved than the common run of the mill rifle. All the stuff I have mentioned is very well known and documented.
 
While it is true that the M1 is sensitive to port pressure (for example, you can destroy your operating rod if a really slow powder is used), there are ways to avoid such problems. First, as 444 mentions, purchase ammo that is designed for the M1 gas system (for example, CMP supplied LC ball, or the new FNM M2 ball type load sold by Cole's for $219.99/1000 (new, NC, boxer)). Second, buy the McCann (or similar) gas plug system that allows you to use different size bleed holes in the gas plug. With it, you can shoot slower powders without danger to the rifle (assuming that breach pressure is safe, of course). Brownell's carries the McCann gas plugs, and they work pretty well.

Also, I agree with 444 about primer sensitivity. Although I have loaded and fired thousands of rounds of .30-06 in Garands over the past few decades, all of which were loaded with CCI200 or Win. LR primers, I don't recommend this practice and no longer use these primers in the Garand. CCI makes the #41 primer especially for .30-06 and .308 mil. spec. ammo (and, which is also especially important for the 7.5x54mm MAS in a Mle. 49/56) to reduce primer sensitivity and reduce the chance of slam-fires in semi rifles. (Or is it #34. I can never remember the number difference for LR and SR primers). Use this primer for M1 Garand loads.
 
Guys, thanks for the info on the M1. I appreciate your help and feedback. Now for an AR question.

A local shop that does a lot of police sales and handles various brands of ARs told me today of the difficulty in getting their orders filled from Colt and Rock River Arms. Supposedly, Colt is not selling any 16" rifles directly to non-LEO folks. They are selling to distributors only. This shop says because of tight supplies, they are also selling only to LEO, at least for the rifles coming straight from Colt. If they can procure rifles from another distributor, they will sell those to non-LEOs. Furthermore, they say the Rock River supply chain is backed up, too. It is apparently easier for this shop to get parts, uppers and lowers separately, than it is to get rifles in a box. So, they say my choices with their shop are wait three or more months for a NIB Rock River AR, take a chance that they will somehow come upon a Colt to sell me, or they will assemble a Rock River for me. If they do that, I will not get a warranty from Rock River, but this shop will offer me a similar warranty. They say they have 4 certified Colt armorers on staff. If I buy the Rock River in this manner, the price would be $750 for a flat top.

First, does this information pretty much match what you folks are hearing about AR availability from Colt and RRA? Supposing I bought an upper and lower assembled by this shop, is $750 close to a decent price? Is their offer of a shop warranty reasonable?

I feel like I am in shark-infested waters here! Guidance is requested. :uhoh:

OTOH, at another shop in town, where I have purchased other firearms in the past, the guys there stock Bushys. They sell flat tops at around $857, give or take a bit. I like these guys. They took a lot of time to actually strip down an AR so I could see how easy it came apart and the guy I talked with obviously likes the platform. No mention of difficulty in obtaining rifles. If based only on a "gut feel," I'd do business again with this shop as I have a level of trust with these folks. But, would I be missing a better deal?
 
My understanding on the Colt issue is that they are trying to keep their distributers from selling LEO marked rifles to civilians. That about all I know as far as supplies go.

$750 isn't too bad for a RRA with a warranty. You could buy a RRA lower, parts kit, stock, and assembled upper from distributers off AR15.com for about $650, so you are paying a little extra for assembly and a warranty.

The advantage of the Bushy is that you get a chrome lined barrel (and it's made of a slightly higher grade of steel), that you don't get on most RRA models. Bushmaster is the largest seller among civilian ARs by a long shot, so it's not suprising that they are easier to get.
 
Get an AR. Don't own one myself but have shot one for firearms qualification. Fun to shoot, no recoil, and it looks like surplus ammo is available cheap.
 
Out of the rifles you listed, I'd go with the AR...

However, If you are open to suggestions, I'd like to recommend a VEPR K in 7.62X39.

After I bought that one the AR don't get out much anymore! It's just TOOOOO fun, and stone cold reliable... It's a blast to line up several water filled milk jugs at 50 yards and go to town! BOOSH! BOOSH! BOOSH!!!!! :evil:
 
NoBite,

Purchase a RRA complete lower and a RRA complete upper separately...

Or, purchase a complete lower from RRA and a complete upper from J&T Distributing...

Or, do the same thing with top quality items from other manufacturers (do a search of manufacturers on AR15.com first)...

It is cheaper, and the only assembly required is pulling out the receiver pivot pin and pushing it back in (which it is designed to do) with the complete upper in place.

Voila, complete rifle...

If you are being charged to mount the complete upper on the complete lower, find another place to buy the stuff... If someone is assembling an upper or lower before mounting the upper on the lower, that's another story...
 
I still say that y'all are missing the boat by NOT including the SKS in the mix. A decent Norinco SKS will cost the princely sum of $200-$250. Add one TechSight @ $50, to give you an iron sight setup equal to that of the Garand or AR, and then spend the rest of your money on LOTS of practice ammo (at less than $.10/round). I can rapid-fire the SKS almost as fast as I can an AR15, and most any SKS will be about as accurate @ 100 yards as most any standard (non-accurized) AR with equal-quality ammo in both.
 
An update...

I'm beginning to make some progress toward evaluating the three rifles I mentioned to begin this thread. ;)

Later this morning, our club is hosting an M1 Garand shoot. They supply the M1's and ammo. For a nominal fee, we can participate in a 30-round competition. For me it'll be a great way to finally shoot one of these legends. In January, the club hosts a 50-round match which they say will qualify us to purchase through the CMP. BTW, these are the club rules, not the CMP's rules.

Also, a good friend is going to loan me his AR to, in his words, "fondle, shoot the crap out of it, and learn the manual of arms." I've purchased 500 rounds from Georgia Arms, so I'm ready for that experience to start!

I'll post my experiences here as I now can evaluate these rifles first hand!
 
Nobite,

If you decide on an AR, then which AR is another thread. Many problems would be prevented by (1) using quality ammo (the aforementioned XM193 and Q3131A are good choices) and (2) using good magazines. Note that (1) and (2) are well discussed in threads here and at the AR15.com forums.

Regardless, get the CMP Garand. You can get the others later. CMP Garands are in limited supply. They are not about to run out, but they will someday. Do it now.

Lee
 
Maybe I can help...

I'm still a rifle newbie. With the exception of a .22 I had years ago, the first long gun I purchased was this past September. It was a Winchester 94 in .30-30. in October I got my first AR, my fist M1, and an M1 Carbine. I've been shooting the bejeezuz out of the last 3 since, and can offer some insights to a new purchaser.

AR: Fun as hell to shoot, and cheap, too. I threw an inexpensive red dot on mine after I got comffortable with the BUIS, and love it to death.

Lever: Fun, but gets tiresome over time. It shoots with a boring reliability, but there's really nothing that exciting about it.

M1 Carbine: A ball to shoot. There's really little more that one can say about it.

M1: People worry about recoil, and the first time I shot it, I *did* come home with a sore shoulder. Then I learned to really pull it in tight and shoot the thing. Since then, it's become my favoritist rifle, and the recoil is something I look forward to, as I know what it's going to do.

Some perceived drawbacks: With the AR, I would not call it a user-friendly shooter. It does not balance well compared to the other 3 rifles. I consider it a "form follows function" firearm, and I personally believe that it was built as a platform with little consideration to the shooter in mind. Though mine weighs half as much as my M1, I get tired shooting it faster.

M1: Can be somewhat expensive to shoot, though there is cheap MilSurp ammo out there. Some of it is corrrosive, and if your read the post about an AR taking a while to clean, they're nothing compared to what you need do after corrosive ammo. But, non-corrosive MilSurp can be found relatively cheaply also. Then there's the weight consideration. 9-1/2 to 11 pounds of rifle can become a bear to hold up at the range over time. Some find it troublesome, some don't. If it starts to get heavy for me over and extended range time, I just switch to the Carbine or AR for a while. That said, it was designed beautifully. It balances extremely well, and that adds considerably to holding it up to your shoulder to shoot for long periods.

Carbine: Fun, fun, fun. Mine's an October 1943 Underwood, and the Carbine owners have almost a religious fervor about them. I do, too, to an extent, inasmuch as I listed the age and make of mine, and bought it specifically because it was a WWII configuration, meaning there's no Korea-era additions to it. They are a gas to shoot, no recoil to speak of, are light, combat-accurate, and .30 Carbine ammo is cheap. However: the cartridge is not particularly powerful in relation to the others, and as such is not going to give you great, shooting match accuracy. It was designed from the ground up as a defensive weapon.

Lever: As I said, it's my least-shot rifle. I bought it because I feel that every long gun owner needs to have at least one lever, and mine is certainly reliable, relatively accurate, and fun to shoot, but it just doesn't blow my skirt up. Also, .30-30 is not the cheapest ammo around. It's far too popular, so the ammo makers don't need to offer great prices on it.

So. Which to buy? I would recomend the M1. AR's will be around a long time, and with the White House secured for the next 4 years, you can always get one, and "tacticalize" it up at your leisure, if that's your wont. You might grow tired of the lever, as did I, but that's a personal call only you can make. The Carbine is a gas, but not as a first rifle: it's a supplement to get afterwards. The M1 is a tangible piece of history, though its availability is slowly, inexorably waning as they're bought up. They are fun to shoot, there's no substitute to that "PING!" as the enbloc clip ejects, and its accuracy out to 400 yards is a given.

Besides, where else can you get "M1 Thumb?" :D

..Joe
 
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As promised, range report on the M1...

First of all, thanks to Immcrock and joegerardi for your comments. I appreciate you for adding your thoughts to what has proved to be an interesting discussion.

This morning I participated in a 30-round M1 Garand match. This was the first time I had even handled one. Lucky for me the RO was a great guy that spent a good amount of time showing me the manual of arms and helping me with everything. It's kind of daunting going to a match and not even realizing where the safety is located on the rifle! :eek: I did get repeated instruction on how to avoid M1 Thumb. And, at least for today, I avoided it.

First impression: this is a Man's Rifle! We started out shooting in the prone position. Five rounds to zero in. I got some good advice on using the sling. Got it good and tight. Real tight. Bring those elbows in. Farther! Get a good cheek weld. (I really need work on this!) After three shots, just rotate your head to the left a little and look into the spotting scope with your left eye. Uh, I've got to practice that a lot as well. I pretty much broke down my shooting position each time I moved to look into the scope. But, my greatest early discovery had to do with the recoil. This may sound odd, but it reminds me of the way a 1911 recoils into your hand. Sort of a good, solid push. Not uncomfortable at all. Especially if you have the sling really tight, your right leg drawn up enough to get your gut off the ground and your elbows in under the rifle. I liked the recoil, actually. Odd. I didn't expect that.

So, after ten rounds slow fire in the prone position, we moved to ten rounds rapid fire in the prone position, starting from standing. 70 seconds. I tried to tell my self to breathe and relax. Tough mission as it was prety darn exciting to hear all the rifles firing at once! :D That was a blast. Then, the final ten rounds were to be slow fire from the standing position. Oh boy! Felt like the end of the barrel was on a merry-go-round! Couldn't keep it steady. The RO told me to squeeze off the shot as the sight moved INTO the black. Don't try to shoot quickly as the sight LEAVES the black. I was trying for perfection, which meant I was holding the rifle for a long time. And, I thought I was in pretty good shape. Wow, that was tough. But, again, lots of fun.

My score was nothing to write home about. We scored the top 30 rounds of the 35 we shot. (30 plus the 5 zeroing rounds.) I hit the paper with 29.

Here's the target (100 yards.)


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The neatest thing is, my scores will be reported to the CMP, which is one part of what I need if I ever want to buy an M1 from them.

The club's next M1 match is the second Sunday in January. I'll be there! In the meantime, more upper body exercises and more reading up on the M1.

For those of you recommending this rifle, I am beginning to see the appeal! :D
 
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cslinger said it best!

The Ar platform is the way to go. It can be modified into what ever you want, and there is plenty of cheap ammo out there so you can enjoy hours of shooting fun
 
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