For those who will go no lower than 9mm...

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Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
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With this, I completely agree. The post I am arguing against stated that placement and penetration are the ONLY things that matter. I agree that they are primary, with load effectiveness being secondary. That secondary role is still viital in selecting a gun, chambering and carry load.

I agree completely that none of this matters without proper placement and sufficient penetration.

Given the same determined bg and identical hits, how much difference would we see in the bleedout rates between your 90gr 9mm "grizzly" load and the 90gr .380 load? Enough to alter the outcome of the encounter?
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Yes. I shoot a bunch of animals with a bunch of different guns and loads. The more energy the load, the bigger the hole, the faster they drop. It's a simple deal.
 
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And just to be clear, I completely agree w/the conventional wisdom that one should carry the largest caliber that can be shot accurately & quickly.
Since all handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet, one shouldn't expect miracles from large/powerful/expanding bullets.
However, that doesn't mean one shouldn't shade the odds in their favor as much as possible... ;)
Tomac
 
(Skipping all of the responses,)

I want it to expand AND fully penetrate a human target. If a bullets stops in the bad guy, that means there is tissue and bone that didn't get damaged. I want ALL of it to get hurt, multiple times if possible. If I don't think a round will completely traverse a human target under most circumstances, I won't use it.

It's not like you can consider a .380 to be SAFE to use in crowded areas. You still don't know that it WON'T overpenetrate, and even if it doesn't, there's no guarantee all of your shots will hit. It's not safety, it's the ILLUSION of safety.
 
First of all, I don't like ''mouse guns''. Second, why carry a .380, when I can get a 9mm that is plenty small enough for deep concealment. Seems like a no brainer to me. :neener:
 
It fits in my pockets but I don't usually carry it that way. Haven't found a nine with the quality accuracy and features to match yet. Still looking.
 
Ammunition with sufficient power is important.

What the "shot placement is all that matters" crowd is not getting is that incapacitation is a matter of probability. It is not as if a bullet effectiveness all becomes the same when it meets their arbitrary standard.

People have survived even shots to the brain. The amount of destruction in inelastic tissues like brain can be very different between 380ACP and 9mm.

Even if the opponent stops for psychological reasons, it is silly to argue that more trauma has nothing to do with higher probability of the opponent's incapacitation.
 
AKElroy said:
I know Marshall and Sanow's work shooting goats is often maligned, but it does as good a job as any in making some sound comparisons. There is not much difference in actual effectiveness between the 9mm, .40, .45 and .357. That is NOT the case with the .380 and lesser loads.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
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Marshal and Sanow didn't shoot goats. Apparently, nobody did. Fackler debunked the Strasbourg goat tests.
 
Without reading the four pages above, I carry a 9mm because it's significantly more powerful, most pistols carry more ammo, it's cheaper to shoot and more fun to shoot. It's probably the most common chambering in pistols which makes it easy to find a pistol I like. I can have a carry and range gun without needing two types of ammo. It's easier and more fun to reload for than the .380. And all that while my PF9 is only slightly bigger than an LCP.
 
Marshal and Sanow didn't shoot goats. Apparently, nobody did. Fackler debunked the Strasbourg goat tests.
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There is an awful lot of work that went into the Strasbourg test results if it is in fact a hoax. I believe it is real, but I also believe that Jan Liborel took some creative license in running with it in his magazine without more thoroughly checking it out how Marshall had condensed the work. Certainly Evan Marshall published his books without questioning the authenticity, and as you stated, compiled that data rather than conducting the actual tests. He also relied on actual shootings, spending a good amount of time in the morgue.

Read the following and decide for yourself. Fackler did not debunk the tests from what I've read, rather h was disgusted it was being used to sell bullets , particularly MagSafe and glaser ammo. I believe he was most disgusted over the commercial use of the work, particularly when fragmented ammo was anathema to his writings.

http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html
 
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I ain't no great pistolero, nor am I any scholar. I have been reading this same debate in one form or another since purchasing my first computer and discovering bulletin boards and, later, forums. I'm not sure I'm a whole lot more knowledgeable now than I was then but it has certainly been interesting and fun. Occasionally, it gets a bit deep. Like staying too long in the LGS on a Saturday afternoon when it can become a game of first liar doesn't stand a chance. (And, no, I am not calling anyone here a liar.) As serious as it all can be, it still ends up being boys with toys.

Hopefully, no one on this forum will ever have to find out for sure.
 
They have been having the same debate long before computers existed! Too many variables in a shooting to put a number on which caliber is best. All I know for sure is that the 380acp has been putting people in morgues for over 100 years. It kills people with the first shot sometimes and sometimes people live after being shot with it multiple times. And you know, the same thing can be said about all handgun calibers.
 
That's true, but the same can be said of even smaller calibers. I'm sure the .22 has put more people in the morgue than all others combined. Dying of peritonitis four days after a shooting likely failed to turn the outcome of the fight, though.

It sounds like you have a high cap .380 that you have tremendous confidence in. That's good, and you should carry it. That said, all the posts in the world are not going to make it the equal of the 9mm.
 
On paper statistics it will never be equal, but in actual self defense shootings they are about the same. I also carry a full size 1911 all steel 45. Not for the caliber, but I can make accurate hits with the 1911 faster than the Beretta. But I do prefer the Beretta capacity.
 
I wonder why so many people automatically refer to the 9MM Luger (or "Parabellum") as "9MM". There are lots of 9MM rounds.
 
On paper statistics it will never be equal, but in actual self defense shootings they are about the same.
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Except that they just aren't. They are not the same at all, not in actual shootings, and not in ballistics testing. Much has been cited in this thread to show that. Having shot a bunch of reactive targets with both calibers, I can tell you they are not close. I often find and could likely re-load .380 rounds that I've fired into produce, milk jugs, cactus, you name it. Hot 9mm loads? I rarely recover. And when I do, they are mushroomed and/or fragmented. The result on the targets is dramatically different as well, with wimpish results from the .380, verses violent results from 9mm on up. The .380 causes reactions akin to a .22lr stingers from a rifle. The 9mm and higher? I'm wearing little bits of whatever I'm shooting at. I'm glad you have a good shooter, and that you are confident with it. I agree with you that those are the most important aspects of an HD weapon. It still does to make your .380 as effective, shot for shot.
 
I don't think the question here is whether or not the .380 is as powerful as the 9mm, but rather is there a significant difference in terminal performance.
There's no scientific way to measure or reproduce "stopping power" and street statistics contain too many variables to quantify for us to say whether or not (insert fav caliber here) is significantly more effective than (insert despised caliber here) once you're at .380 or better.
Tomac
 
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