For those who will go no lower than 9mm...

[AKElroy]

I agree with you. The only part I would change in your post would be to start the scale at 9mm or better. I catch a lot of grief from my shooting buddies that I carry a 9, in fact I have five of them. I sold all my .40's because of ammo expense, less controllability and capacity, and near identical performance to properly loaded 9mm's. Ditto the .45, although I'm never selling my 1911 because I love shooting it.

Look, I carry a .380 when I'm unable to belt carry. I am just not under any illusions that both experience and study have shown it is literally half the round the 9mm is.

 

[jimbo555]

The more I work on my marksmanship,the less I worry about caliber. I believe that any handgun including 22lr,25acp will work for 99% of self defense situations. If I meet up with the mythical 300 pound meth dealer who wants to do me harm I guess I'll just hit him with what I got and hope to out run him.

 

[wow6599]

This thread has gotten ridiculous. I carry a Ruger LCP in .380 when I can't carry a PM9 or a mid-full size firearm in "real" calibers, and I guarantee ya that If I ever needed to use that sorry little "mouse gun", the person on the other end would know it.......and I would still be standing. I practice.

Does anyone really think a couple of shots with a .380 to the chest wouldn't work? Or are some of us watching too much TV? Yeah, I'll take a 10mm, .45, .40, etc. over a .380, but I can't fit one in my back pocket at work or church.

Somebody should start a poll on how many people have unsuccessfully defended themselves with a .380; love to see that............

 

[AKElroy]

Never said the .380 was not a decent defensive choice. Never said it would fail to stop a threat. I carried one today. I have been spending time in this thread arguing against the notion that it is just as effective as the 9mm. It isn't. I'm done arguing. Argue with Mas Ayoob:

"For the backwoods person who does not have these particular threats, and keeps a handgun for protection against feral dogs or feral humans, the 9mm or .38 Special can be adequate, and their famously light recoil makes them easy for smaller folks to shoot, or folks who are new to the gun and just a little bit intimidated by the whole thing.

Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

 

[TestPilot]

... All I know for sure is that the 380acp has been putting people in morgues for over 100 years. ...

I am sick and tired of hearing this line of argument.

Same can be said about 22 LR. Does that make 22LR just as effective as a 9mm?

Unsanitized needles have been putting people in morgues for far more than 100 years. So, is unsanitized needle just as effective as 45ACP now?

...
It kills people with the first shot sometimes and sometimes people live after being shot with it multiple times. And you know, the same thing can be said about all handgun calibers.
...

That is a meaningless argument

Actually same can be said about 12 gauge buck shots. Just ask Jim Cirillo who have been into more than dozen gun fights.

Does that mean you can argue 380ACP is just as effective as a 12ga. buckshots?

 

[jimbo555]

Ask your Governor Rick Perry. He had no trouble dispatching a threatening coyote with a ruger lcp.

 

[mljdeckard]

How much does a coyote weigh? How much does the average attacker weigh?

 

[jimbo555]

The 380 in my pocket IS more effective than the 12 guage in my closet.

 

[AKElroy]

Ask your Governor Rick Perry. He had no trouble dispatching a threatening coyote with a ruger lcp.

First, even though I have repeatedly supported Mr. Perry, I doubt this actually happened. Even if it did, it only proves that a .380 is good medicine for a 40lb dog. I guess I agree with that.

 

[TestPilot]

Does anyone really think a couple of shots with a .380 to the chest wouldn't work?

Nobody knows it would or would not work.

It must be estimated in terms of probability, not certainly based on some arbitrary imagined conditions like "If I put two in there, I am certain it will work."

I do think it has lower probability than 9mm or above.

 

[jimbo555]

Does anyone have an example of someone shot 3 times in the chest with a 380 and continued to attack?

 

[AKElroy]

Does anyone have an example of someone shot 3 times in the chest with a 380 and continued to attack?

It would be far more difficult to find any example of a defender actually hitting an attacker three times in the chest. Even police shootings have miss rates over 90%, and they likely have more training and better equipment. On the unlikely chance I get one to connect, I want it to count.

 

[jimbo555]

Take a look at "An alternate look at handgun stopping power" by Greg Ellifritz. There is very little difference in the ability to stop in all the calibers from 380 on up.This was a lengthy study of actual shootings.

 

[Mike J]

Everyone should shoot & carry what they choose. I don't own a .380. That is not to say that I don't see the value in one of the P-3AT or LCP sized guns that can be carried when anything larger wont work but if I have to use a handgun I would prefer something 9mm or up. That isn't to say that a .380 wont work but if I can have something more potent available & I do believe 9mm, .40 & .45 are more potent, why not. If you like .380 go with it. I'll use what I believe is best for my purposes.

 

[AKElroy]

Does anyone have an example of someone shot 3 times in the chest with a 380 and continued to attack?

I know I should let this go, but reckon where you are going to find a bad guy that is going to stand in front of you, at shooting distance, still, while you pump three into his kill zone?

Lets ponder a couple of options: Chances are very high that you are already in a physical confrontation with your attacker before the gun is produced. Chances are both you and he are desperate, hair pulling, eye gouging, furious desperation. The gun is produced, now two people are fighting for it. Reckon in all of that when he is going to stop and let you place three easy shots?

Option two: you identify him as a threat and are able to produce your weapon before he closes the distance. Is he just going to stop? I think that is by far the most unlikely scenario. He will either run or rush and tackle. Neither of which will allow you three easy shots.

 

[M1key]

My wife and her sister carry a 9mm with my recommendation. I also teach them to shoot until the perp(s) stop or drop. However, I will seldom ever carry a 9mm.

Good luck

M

 

[AKElroy]

Take a look at "An alternate look at handgun stopping power" by Greg Ellifritz. There is very little difference in the ability to stop in all the calibers from 380 on up.This was a lengthy study of actual shootings.

I have, and his position is based on the psychology of being shot, NOT physical incapacitation, and no, he did not start that scale at the .380, but rather a .22lr. I agree with him that statistics show that most attackers will stop when they are shot, regardless of whether the shot is actually physically debilitating. .22 on up had similar ability to end MOST altercations. That is the crux of Ellifritz' research. He is also very detailed in pointing out that a determined attacker will require actual physical incapacitation, and that NO ONE should interpret his work in such a way as to justify carrying an underpowered weapon.

 

[breakingcontact]

The more I work on my marksmanship,the less I worry about caliber. I believe that any handgun including 22lr,25acp will work for 99% of self defense situations. If I meet up with the mythical 300 pound meth dealer who wants to do me harm I guess I'll just hit him with what I got and hope to out run him.

Then you should have brought a rifle or shotgun. Handguns suck comparatively.

 

[spottedpony]

Something i'm surprised no one's touched on. Can you point shoot your favorite handgun and shoot where you're looking and it points? Handgun fit is important in Instinctive shooting. Extend your arm and see where the finger is pointing, and when you draw and point a handgun, then drop your head slightly to obtain a correct sight picture, the sights should be lined up where you are looking or at the "finger point" position.
In a use of deadly force scenerio, instinct will be what takes over and if it doesnt shoot where you point, you could well not be on target.
In other words caliber and statistics should be secondary to proper gun fit.

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

I'm not going to trust my life and the lives of my family members to anything smaller than a self-propelled 105 howitzer. Now, that's stopping power, by damn!

 

[Al Thompson]

Per the OP's request and the 6 page "rule", closed.