Forcing cone wear

[TestedTwice]

I apologize for asking so many questions about this revolver; it’s my first revolver so I absolutely have no idea what to expect with these things.

Anyway, I just took my 686 to the range and fired about 100 rounds of SJHP. I fired it pretty quickly because it was really cold (not sure if temperature can affect the wearing of the forcing cone with rapid temperature change).

Anyway, I took this picture because it looks pretty rough and I’m not sure if the steel surrounding the forcing cone wears rather quickly under normal circumstances. The forcing cone itself looks fine, but please excuse the carbon buildup; I cannot for the life of me get it off!

https://imgur.com/a/LMbPrXD

 

[Bama59]

SJHP of what grain and caliber ? if you rapid fired 100 rounds of 125gr .357 or .38spl+p you betcha it got hot. Soak with Hoopes9 or other and bronze brush

 

[labnoti]

That's not wear. It's more likely leading. You just need to clean the gun.

Barrel face and forcing cone erosion happen because of high flame temperatures. These temperatures can be created by a single shot and they are localized to a very thin layer of metal referred to as the "heat affected zone" or HAZ.

Again, the HAZ is created with a single shot. The size and depth of the HAZ is not determined by how rapid you fire, but by the flame temperature and oxygen of the powder under the pressure conditions during each shot.

Successive shots do increase wear because they erode the damaged HAZ. But it does not matter much how rapidly the successive shots occur.

The heat you feel on the gun does not affect the wear rate. Your revolver could be heated to over 140 deg. F where it would burn your hands to hold it, and that would do nothing to the metal at all.

The popular theory is that the high-nitroglycerin content powders create the most substantial HAZ. This could be due to higher flame temperatures or due to the oxygen from the nitro that is making those higher flame temps. The high-nitro powders are the ones that give the highest performance though. (It shouldn't surprise us that the highest performance comes at some cost.)

You could probably fire that 686 as much as you wanted with whatever ammo you wanted and not ever see an appreciable amount of wear in your life. If you ever did, you could be certain that it would only be well after you got out of it all it was ever worth. I mean, we're not talking about a museum piece here for historic preservation. It's a 686. If you ever do manage to shoot many 10's of thousands of the hottest rounds through it, it will wear noticeably, but so what? For a tiny fraction of what you'd be spending on ammo, you could buy another two or three of them.

 

[kidneyboy]

That's not wear. It's more likely leading. You just need to clean the gun.

What he said.^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[MachIVshooter]

The 686 is a tank. Labnoti is right when he says

You could probably fire that 686 as much as you wanted with whatever ammo you wanted and not ever see an appreciable amount of wear in your life.

Lots of very hot loads, especially 110 or 125 gr screamers, will cause some top strap flame erosion, but it's a self-limiting problem, and the 686 has plenty of top strap.

Now, some other guns with thin forcing cones, like the S&W K frame and Ruger Security Six/Speed Six can suffer cracked forcing cones, particularly with the aforementioned light & fast loads. But heavy duty critters like the L or N frame Smiths don't have that problem.

 

[TestedTwice]

Wow! That’s a ton of stuff I didn’t even know was a factor in revolvers! Thanks for that very detailed description! That’s a lot of stuff to understand.

The wear that I was trying to point out on my revolver wasn’t the top strap, but the left side of the forcing cone. It looks like it was burned out, leaving the steel around the cone all jagged. I tried cleaning it again and got it a little cleaner. Here’s an updated picture; I tried taking a clear picture, but it doesn’t always come out. How do you tell where the leading is? Also, what can I use/buy to clean ABOVE the forcing cone? I can’t seem to find anything to fit up there to scrub all that carbon away.

https://imgur.com/a/LovlnrP

 

[forrest r]

Looks like tool marks, s&w has monkeys with broken hacksaw blades making their revolvers anymore.

This is what forcing cone erosion looks like. A bbl I took off a 586,throat erosion after 75,000+ hot 357 loads.

 

[MidRoad]

Lead removing wipes work fantastic. As log as your gun is stainless, don't use them on a blued gun. The wipes will take all that black off, works well on the front of the cylinder.

If your gun is leading you can use 100% copper chore boy pads wrapped around d a cleaning brush to get it out. Make sure it's the 100% copper and not just copper coated. Here's a pic of what minor leading looks like. Lots of time it's just the first inch or so of the barrel. But bad leading can be alot more.

 

[forrest r]

Never dull is another excellent product to use on ss firearms. Never dull will easily take the leading and black carbon buildup of the face of the cylinders. It also does an excellent job of cleaning the cylinder holes themselves by using the same method as the chore-boy copper pads. Simply wrap around a cleaning brush.

 

[bob_atl]

These Birchwood Casey wipes will clean the front side of the cylinder & forcing cone : https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AU67BEM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I cut off about a 2" strip for one cleaning session.
Just started using Nitrile Exam Gloves cause it takes some heavy scrubbing with these wipes.

 

[Drail]

"... S&W has monkeys with broken hacksaw blades making their revolvers anymore.." Sad but so true. Guns that at one time were designed and carefully hand fitted to function perfectly for your lifetime and could be passed down to your children are now designed, built and marketed for one simple purpose - to sell to consumers who have no idea what they are even looking at. In time they will all be made from plastic and aluminum, and when they break people will just throw them away and buy another one. It's a brave new world......... I am really glad I was lucky enough to have lived in the Old Days when they took pride in their workmanship.

 

[Jack B.]

Clean it . It's fine.

 

[TestedTwice]

A lot of good recommendations! I appreciate the responses! Again, I apologize for all the questions. Eroding forcing cones and flame cutting are all completely mindblowing discoveries for me with revolvers. Lol. How do I scrub between the cone and the top strap? It’s such a tiny gap and I can’t fit anything. Should I just get a toothbrush for it? Or a copper brush as was mentioned?

Also, I see there are gaps on the sides of the forcing cone. There wouldn’t be any possibility of the forcing cone moving side to side and not lining up with the cylinder holes, would there? Even with future eroding of the steel on the sides of the cone?

 

[Zendude]

The forcing cone looks fine. Dings on the outside of the forcing cone don’t affect anything. The inside of the forcing cone is more imprtant to inspect for damage and high residue buildup.

 

[MidRoad]

A lot of good recommendations! I appreciate the responses! Again, I apologize for all the questions. Eroding forcing cones and flame cutting are all completely mindblowing discoveries for me with revolvers. Lol. How do I scrub between the cone and the top strap? It’s such a tiny gap and I can’t fit anything. Should I just get a toothbrush for it? Or a copper brush as was mentioned?

Also, I see there are gaps on the sides of the forcing cone. There wouldn’t be any possibility of the forcing cone moving side to side and not lining up with the cylinder holes, would there? Even with future eroding of the steel on the sides of the cone?

No the cone is part of the barrel, so if the barrel is tight it ain't going no where. Tooth brush or a nylon brush with a piece of lead removing cloth will get it clean. Go shoot the hell outta that revolver. There's lots if good videos on youtube too.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

Labnati is right. Hoppes #9 and a brass brush set you right. Don't lick it or nothing. But the steel looks good.

 

[labnoti]

C - Is where forcing cone erosion happens. We cannot see the forcing cone in the picture, but there are no reasons to have a concern.
B - Is where barrel face erosion happens. This sharp edge will start to be broken down and will look like the other example shown after ~75,000 rounds.
A - Is the edge of the hole in the frame where the barrel is inserted. This edge should be chamfered as you see just below the arrow. Reasons for it not being chamfered at the arrow could be a lead deposit or inattention to detail when it was chamfered at the factory. There is no consequence to the function of the gun. Try soaking it in Hoppes #9 and carefully scraping it with a dental pick to see if it is lead or steel.
D - Are saw marks. This part of the frame is not finished at the factory because it does not show when the cylinder is closed.

Here is another example of bad barrel face erosion mentioned in "B"

 

[TestedTwice]

No the cone is part of the barrel, so if the barrel is tight it ain't going no where. Tooth brush or a nylon brush with a piece of lead removing cloth will get it clean. Go shoot the hell outta that revolver. There's lots if good videos on youtube too.

I appreciate the feedback. I was thinking the forcing cone was similar to the barrel extension on an AR-15 instead of being an actual part of the barrel. I’ve had loose barrel extensions, so I was thinking this could happen to a revolver’s forcing cone as well. Glad to hear that that’s not the case!

C - Is where forcing cone erosion happens. We cannot see the forcing cone in the picture, but there are no reasons to have a concern.
B - Is where barrel face erosion happens. This sharp edge will start to be broken down and will look like the other example shown after ~75,000 rounds.
A - Is the edge of the hole in the frame where the barrel is inserted. This edge should be chamfered as you see just below the arrow. Reasons for it not being chamfered at the arrow could be a lead deposit or inattention to detail when it was chamfered at the factory. There is no consequence to the function of the gun. Try soaking it in Hoppes #9 and carefully scraping it with a dental pick to see if it is lead or steel.
D - Are saw marks. This part of the frame is not finished at the factory because it does not show when the cylinder is closed.

Thanks a ton for taking time out of your day to point out those little spots! So basically, no matter how chewed up and gapped area A gets, it will have absolutely ZERO effect on shooting the revolver? The barrel face and inside the forcing cone both look good. Area A was the concern I was having because I was worried about the forcing cone becoming loose (I thought it was similar to the barrel extension in an AR-15 instead of an actual solid part of the barrel).

As far as it not being chamfered by the arrow, I’m starting to wonder if that isn’t just leading. Does leading often look like it’s part of the steel on the gun? If it IS leading, there’s absolutely no seam between it and the steel. If that makes any sense at all. Lol.

 

[243winxb]

1. Wet area with Hoppe's #9 Bore cleaner. Let sit for 24 hrs. Use a tooth brush on it. Still not clean enough? Repeat #1.

Your over thinking it.

 

[TestedTwice]

1. Wet area with Hoppe's #9 Bore cleaner. Let sit for 24 hrs. Use a tooth brush on it. Still not clean enough? Repeat #1.

Your over thinking it.

I very well could be! But the way I see it, it’s hard to not overthink something when it comes to a $700 purchase.

 

[TestedTwice]

Here’s a picture of the area after one pass of Hoppe’s 9 and a brass brush. I let the Hoppe’s sit on the area for about twenty minutes.

https://imgur.com/a/WvDZ8YC

While it’s not perfect and there’s a good chance that a monkey really did take a hacksaw to my gun at the factory (or perhaps there’s still more leading), I’d say this pretty much sets my mind at ease about the whole thing. Thanks to everybody that responded to this thread and set my mind at ease! I can now go back to shooting the heck out of my revolver without worry.

 

[Obturation]

How do I scrub between the cone and the top strap? It’s such a tiny gap and I can’t fit anything.

Just leave it alone , the deposits there prevent future errosion, carbon is hard and the stuff left there will protect the top strap. Unless it becomes thick and prevents cylinder rotation. Best advice ive got for you is the same as 243winxb - youre over thinking it. If youre concerned about wear rest assured it will cost $25,000 or more in ammo to wear out your $700 gun and that may be an under estimate.

 

[TestedTwice]

Just leave it alone , the deposits there prevent future errosion, carbon is hard and the stuff left there will protect the top strap. Unless it becomes thick and prevents cylinder rotation. Best advice ive got for you is the same as 243winxb - youre over thinking it. If youre concerned about wear rest assured it will cost $25,000 or more in ammo to wear out your $700 gun and that may be an under estimate.

I can honestly say that you’re the first person that’s ever told me to leave part of a gun dirty. Not that I’m saying it’s bad advice. I suppose I could see it helping to prevent erosion, but I’m guessing since it would take $25,000 worth of ammo to wear my gun out in the first place, the carbon wouldn’t really be necessary to help stop the erosion? I wasn’t so much worried about wear as I was worried about EARLY wear due to weak steel/manufacturing faults. Nobody wants a defective gun.

 

[Obturation]

I can honestly say that you’re the first person that’s ever told me to leave part of a gun dirty. Not that I’m saying it’s bad advice. I suppose I could see it helping to prevent erosion, but I’m guessing since it would take $25,000 worth of ammo to wear my gun out in the first place, the carbon wouldn’t really be necessary to help stop the erosion? I wasn’t so much worried about wear as I was worried about EARLY wear due to weak steel/manufacturing faults. Nobody wants a defective gun.

Top strap cutting is the only issue that leaving a gun dirty can help. And yeah, it would be extreme to have the top strap cut enough to matter but you'll see it if you shoot enough ( lighter projectiles accelerate this cutting), on a 357 i leave the top stap alone when cleaning and the errosion never progresses. Most revolvers will show some errossion in this area - looks like pitting in a line right at the cylinder gap. Get a lead removing cloth for the other blackened areas.

 

[Riomouse911]

That forcing cone in Pic #2 is spotless, you're fine with it!

Again, the rough stuff on the inside face of that frame isn't polished because it's not really visible. The forcing cone itself looks fine.

The only time I will clean the black rings around the face of a stainless cylinder is when they got really, really dark and started bugging me, or I was going to sell the revolver. After you put the effort into cleaning the rings they return immediately on the very first shot fired through each chamber. IMHO it's sort of a waste of time, and if you use abrasives (Flitz, etc.) there is a chance that overzealous cleaning in this are may wear metal down a bit to the detriment of the gun.

You have a great gun, it will last you decades without issues if you take reasonable care of it.

If you start reloading for it, there is almost no loading you can't duplicate in .38 or .357... and the search for the most accurate loads is half the fun.

Stay safe!