Form 4 woes

[Magoo]

This turned out a bit long winded, but I tried to explain my situation as fully as I know it. Any thoughts/advice/discussion are appreciated.

Two days short of a full six months after submitting my paperwork (Feb 18), today I get an envelope from the ATF. Hmmm...I thought my FAL dealer was to receive the paperwork, not me. Fearing the worst, I tear it open and sure enough it was not my tax stamp. Instead, it is a form indicating (by check box) why my application was denied.

x Improperly taken fingerprints. Carefully follow directions on the back of FD-258 finger print card.

With a handwritten (but obviously a photocopy of the original) note stating "Please complete one (1) new print card [no punctuation] please follow instructions on sample sheet and mail directly back to me AT [his capitalization] ATF ATTN: XX XXXXXXX.

Also handwritten under "Enclosure(s)" at the bottom is:
1 New card
1 old card
the last (?) entry was cut off when the original was photocopied

Argh :banghead:

The prints were taken at the dealer where I purchased the can. Now to be fair, I've got horrible prints. I've got a bit of scarring and just don't print well. To get my CWP required the submission of three sets of prints. That ended up taking quite a while (~3 months) to wait for the state to reject each of the first two in turn. The third was submitted with a letter explaining "this is the best we can do." Apparently in SC, they have to accept the third submission.

So I'm looking for some advice. This afternoon I went to the city police department and paid $10 to have their head guy do my prints on the ATF provided card. He explained the only cards he had were for criminal booking and couldn't do any more sets for me. A really nice guy, he pointed out some smudging in my original prints, letting me look through his glass and explaining technique and such. He also provided me with a signed letter on letterhead which says I [XXX XXXX] came in on this date for prints for civil purpose and that "This office has provided the best available rolled fingerprints." There is a section below which says "Please state any adverse condition(s) that affects the clear quality of this person's fingerprints." Under which he wrote "Missing Deltas/Missing Ridge Detail". I'm not sure why he didn't note the scarring he identified and we talked about (?).

My first thought is to get as many sets of my fingerprints as possible taken and submit the whole lot. A problem is that I only had the one card with the ATF as the addressee. I might be able to get more from my dealer. Unfortunately the NFA guy at the store won't be in for several days for me to talk to. I hope he has some suggestions for me as well. Another problem with the "stack-o-prints" strategy is that the ATF specifically said to resubmit "one (1)" set of prints. A "good" bureaucrat could certainly re-deny me for not following directions.

I have heard rumors that this kind of thing could be a kind of "back at ya" towards SC for some of the things our Governor has done with respect to the Federal Govt.. I don't really know anything about that (factually) really, and it's not like I'm a major political mover and shaker, so I'll just leave that to the big boys and those that do wish to entertain such ideas.

There is no legal reason that I should be denied the tax stamp to put any of that speculation out of mind.

I will certainly photocopy every document I add along the way.

I am tempted to send them a bonus DNA sample barf when I reapply, but I'll try to resist.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Were the prints sent on the correct (blue, I think) federal form? There are federal and state finger print cards. You can usually go to the Sheriff's office and they will do the federal cards for a small fee.

Also, with NFA stuff, when in doubt send too much stuff to them. I also sent them a copy of my CHL too. It's not required, but I figure it's one more bit of proof that I'm not a criminal.

 

[Magoo]

Thanks for the response

Yep, both the (returned) sent/original one and the (today fingerprinted) provided one are in blue ink. It is typed-addressed [in the section labeled (vertically) "O R I"] to:
WVAATFXXXX
ATF-NFA BRANCH
MARTINSBURG, WV

A fear I have is that I moved too quickly and got the provided one card fingerprinted. I do feel good about the provenance of the prints, about the best I can economically hope to get, particularly with the addition of the letter. Anyone have any input on how the "ORI" section HAS to be addressed/completed to be an acceptable part of a gaggle of co-submissions?


I'll definitely check in with the sheriff's office. I intend to, but I ran out of time today. Driving/dodging construction/parking "downtown" was no fun but I've gotta say all the folks at the LEC were very nice and helpful .

 

[tincanhunter]

Wow that all sounds like a massive PITA! I had to have my prints taken for a passport as well as CCW and had similar issues because I'm diabetic and have to stick my fingers on a regular basis. Out of curiosity, have you considered going the trust route for your form 4? I realized my prints may be an issue, as well as CLEO sign off, and had an NFA trust drawn up for $300 by a local lawyer (who also has a class 3 license). I had my papers back and can home in 3 months.

Just a thought.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Do a little googling for the ATF forms request page. Sorry I don't have the link off hand. You can request as many fingerprint cards as you want. As I recall, the forms showed up within about a week when I last made a request.

I would put all the paranoia aside and see this as just what it probably is: some guy whose job it is to scan fingerprints and run them against the database looked at yours and said to himself, "These suck. I'm gonna make this guy send some new ones."

My experience with the ATF NFA Branch is not the kind of experience that people have with the law enforcement side of the ATF. Sure, it took a while for my Form 1 to come back. It was because the ATF's lawyer misread Kentucky law on trusts. I sent a letter explaining how he was wrong (I'm a lawyer, btw) and he must have agreed with me, because I got my Form 1 approved. It did take a few months after I sent the letter, though, because apparently the lawyer(s) went on vacation. Typical government office delays--no specific ill will.

They're not looking for arbitrary reasons to deny you. They approve these all the time, presuming all the paperwork is in order. But they do have standards for the paperwork, and they'll hold you to it, as any typical government agency will. They didn't like your fingerprints.

I completely agree with the idea of ordering some more fingerprint cards, and having prints done by as many different professionals as you can find--local sheriff, local police, ATF field office, whatever--anyone that will do them. Then send them all to the address they gave you along with a letter explaining exactly what you've explained to us--that you're not giving bad prints intentionally, that you had problems before when you applied for your CCW, and that you have scarring on your fingers that makes prints hard to get.

It's going to be a hassle. That's just how dealing with the ATF seems to go. If everything is perfect, you get approved fast. If any T isn't crossed or I isn't dotted, then you've gotta jump through hoops. Don't give up. It took from December 26, 2009 to July 2010 for me to get my form 1 approved. But they did finally approve it.

Good luck.

Aaron

(Disclaimer: I am not providing you legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)

 

[Magoo]

Thanks for the response Aaron.

I'm glad to hear you liked my strategy of multiple sets of prints and I'll do that. I didn't know I could order the fingerprint cards directly from the ATF. Here is the link: http://www.atf.gov/forms/dcof . It is form FBI FD-258LE - NFA, Imports ORI WVATF0800. It took me all of two minutes to find once you told me to look and I should now have ten cards on their way to my house.

It's not paranoia on my end, just frustration. I know my situation is nothing out of the ordinary, and I'm right in the time frame (albeit the longer end) of what most folks experience. I was a bit keyed up yesterday, but sleeping on it has me resigned to just some more waiting, with a bit more effort in paperwork. I am sending the remission to a specific person, not just a huge, faceless bureaucracy so I feel better about it actually getting looked at in a timely manner.

 

[Magoo]

Sorry tincanhunter- I skipped right over your post and missed it.

Yes, it's a PITA but as Aaron said I don't think there's any ill will or "gotcha" aimed specifically at me. I can understand, and to some extent sympathize with, them not making it quick and easy to get NFA items.

Yeah, after my application was sent in I kept hearing more and more that setting up a trust was the way to go. There is apparently someone local that does it for something on the order of $100. I should have gone that route and probably will if/when I go for another NFA item. I assume I'd try and transfer this item to that trust as well. I have no idea what that would entail and don't even want to think about it now- a bridge to be crossed later.

I don't remember getting printed for my passport- it would have been over 20 years ago- and definitely not for renewal. If I did there were no issues with that set.

 

[Rail Driver]

Just a little note, on the ATF site where you order the forms, they're now limiting each person to 2 fingerprint cards per order, at least on the page I ordered from last night.

 

[Bubbles]

The FBI handles the background check part of the process. If there are issues with the quality of the fingerprints, it's the FBI who kicks them back, not the ATF.

 

[Magoo]

The limit of two cards is for the form FBI FD-258FA - FFL Application ORI WVATF1100. They don't indicate a limit for form FBI FD-258LE - NFA, Imports ORI WVATF0800 which is what I needed so I requested ten.

And yes, the name of the form so indicates that it is an FBI form and it is presumably their fingerprint database. But it was an ATF agent that checked the "bad prints" box and handwrote notes on the form. Dunno

 

[GrimmLV]

This is a good reason to have a trust. It would have saved you all this pain. Hope all goes well on this set.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Just FYI, as well, if the person who sent you the letter is an "examiner," then you can call the ATF number in West Virginia and talk to them. They're pretty nice people. When you call the number (304-616-4500), you'll get the front-line customer service people, who can only really look up a status on your Form 4. (Approved/Pending/Problem/etc) But if you say, for instance, "I'm calling for Sara Jones." then they will transfer you to Examiner Sara Jones right away, no questions asked.

So if you think that talking to them might help, go ahead and call. It's worth a try. But new fingerprint cards along with a letter explaining the problems you've previously had being fingerprinted is probably going to be sufficient.

Aaron

 

[waterhouse]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Some fingerprints are easy to take, some are next to impossible. There are a few products available to help bring the ridge lines out, but sometimes even those don't help much.

I'm not sure why he didn't note the scarring he identified and we talked about (?).

Scarring tends to be long lasting and specific to an individual, so it is generally accepted as a "good" print. Guys that work with their hands a lot (such as manual laborers) can either callus over or sometimes wear their ridges down, which means you just get a smudge type print. Unlike scars, these smudges aren't very individual, so the prints are often no good for identification and are not accepted, even if its the best you can do.

 

[JnC Manufacturing]

When you resubmit your paperwork wait a couple of weeks and call them to find out who is handling your transfer.
This way you will have a POC and they have been more then helpfull when I have called in the past.

 

[jmorris]

You have spent more time doing finger prints than it takes to set up a trust, not to mention you only need one trust for all of your toys.

 

[jmorris]

When you resubmit your paperwork wait a couple of weeks and call them to find out who is handling your transfer.

He already knows who the examiner is.

and mail directly back to me AT [his capitalization] ATF ATTN: XX XXXXXXX.

I guess you could call him at 304-616-4500 if a conversation would help.

 

[TalonArms_R]

I agree with jmorris and GrimmLV,
Set up a trust and forget about fingerprint cards. Here in Harris county,TX it is a moot point as you can't get a CLEO signoff anyway. We transfer about 50 NFA items a month and 95% are for trusts.