Form 4473 questions

[spm]

I'm sure this has been covered someplace, but I can't find a thread and I've had conflicting answers when I ask other people.

I would like a complete rundown on what happens with the form 4473 and the record of a handgun transaction.

What exactly happens with the form 4473 during and after the purchase of a handgun?

Who does the dealer call? ATF?
What do they ask him?
What do they do with the information?
Do they keep it? How long?
What happens to the form after the transaction? Is it mailed to the ATF?
How long is the dealer required to keep the record of the sale and a copy of the 4473?
etc. etc.etc.

Thanks.
Steve

 

[happygeek]

The dealer/01 FFL calls NICS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System), not the ATF
The dealter/01 FFL holds onto your 4473 for the next 20 years, unless he goes out of business or otherwise lets his 01 FFL lapse. Then he sends all his 4473s to the ATF, who stick them in a warehouse somewhere, but don't 'put them on digits', at least that's what we're told.

What all this means is that, for example, the local cops raid some dude's house because he's growing pot under a heat lamp in the garage and they find a shotgun laying around in the closet. They can call the ATF, give the ATF the manufacturer and serial #, the ATF can call the manufacturer and find out what distributor it was sold to, then call the distributor and get the 01 FFL who sold it, then call the dealer/01 FFL and have them go through their filing cabinet and/or bound book to get the buyer's name. Assuming the buyer bought the shotgun in WA state, then moved down to OR where he was busted for growing pot, this little example trace would be included in Blomberg's "study" on "trafficked" firearms.

 

[Birch Knoll]

Who does the dealer call? ATF?

The FBI national Instant Check System (NICS)

What do they ask him?

Name, date and place of birth, height, weight, gender, Social Security Number (optional), race/ethnicity, state of residence, country of citizenship and type of firearm being transferred (handgun, long gun or other). They do not receive any information on what make/model/serial number is to be transferred, nor do they even know if a transfer actually takes place in the end.

What do they do with the information?

They use it to check to see if there is any record of a disqualifying factor for the purchaser, like a felony conviction, indictment, conviction of a misdemeanor charge of domestic violence, mental incompetence, and so on. They also do a few rules-based checks, like whether the transfer would be of a handgun to a resident of another state.

Do they keep it? How long?

If the NICS result is a PROCEED, the record is destroyed within 24 hours. If it's a DELAY, it's kept until a final determination is made. If it's a DENIED, it's kept long-term.

What happens to the form after the transaction? Is it mailed to the ATF?

No, it is kept in the FFL's records for 20 years, at which time it can be destroyed. If the FFL gives up his license, the records are shipped to ATF for storage.

How long is the dealer required to keep the record of the sale and a copy of the 4473?

As above, 20 years.

 

[Ryanxia]

Pretty well been answered.

 

[joeschmoe]

What do they do with the "race" info?
Why do they ask it, and what do they do with that info?

I think it's outrageous that it's on there.

 

[meanmrmustard]

What do they do with the "race" info?
Why do they ask it, and what do they do with that info?

I think it's outrageous that it's on there.

Agreed.

 

[brboyer]

To be precise: Twenty-nine states use FBI NICS for all checks, 13 use a state point of contact and the remainder use a either State or FBI depending on the type of transfer.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/state-lists.html

 

[brboyer]

What do they do with the "race" info?
Why do they ask it, and what do they do with that info?

I think it's outrageous that it's on there.

Calm down, it's simply an identification metric.

 

[hso]

I think it's outrageous that it's on there.

joeschmoe,

You're not required to provide your SS# on the 4473, it is an option. Many people don't provide it. Sometimes there are 3 joeschmoes with disqualifying results and each may be a different race from you. That "race" thing may help differentiate you from the other joeschmoe that's a prohibited person.

If you'd rather you can always opt to include your SS# and avoid such confusion potential.

 

[joeschmoe]

Calm down, it's simply an identification metric.

So my drivers license, name, address and date of birth were not enough to distiguish me from the other joeschmoes with the same drivers license, name, address and date of birth?

 

[joeschmoe]

joeschmoe,

You're not required to provide your SS# on the 4473, it is an option. Many people don't provide it. Sometimes there are 3 joeschmoes with disqualifying results and each may be a different race from you. That "race" thing may help differentiate you from the other joeschmoe that's a prohibited person.

If you'd rather you can always opt to include your SS# and avoid such confusion potential.

The question was race, but since you mentioned it...
Just once I decided NOT to give it, since it was "optional". I was denied my purchase. I had to appeal while the gun I paid for sat in the display box for 3 months getting handled by everyone who came through the store.
In the appeal, I was REQUIRED, to give my SS and fingerprints. So in the end, no... it was not optional. I was required to give it to exercise my right.

BTW, I have an unusual name.

Race is offensive and not needed.

 

[Sam1911]

The question was race, but since you mentioned it...
Just once I decided NOT to give it, since it was "optional". I was denied my purchase. I had to appeal while the gun I paid for sat in the display box for 3 months getting handled by everyone who came through the store.
In the appeal, I was REQUIRED, to give my SS and fingerprints. So in the end, no... it was not optional. I was required to give it to exercise my right.

BTW, I have an unusual name.

Race is offensive and not needed.

Wonder what would have happened if you refused to fill in your weight or gender?

Seeing as they do not deny anyone based on any of those points of info, it's sort of silly to say it is offensive to put down on paper what YOU THINK your skin tone or ethnicity is.

In the end that metric is probably genetically irrelevant, erroneous, and possibly even a fiction, but heck, it is a more long-lived identifying characteristic than something like weight or height.

 

[Birch Knoll]

So my drivers license, name, address and date of birth were not enough to distiguish me from the other joeschmoes with the same drivers license, name, address and date of birth?

NICS doesn't get your driver's license number. And, yes, there are many people with similar names and dates of birth. Not to mention people who use false names and dates of birth.

 

[Birch Knoll]

BTW, I have an unusual name.
Race is offensive and not needed.

How nice that you have unusual name. Props to your parents on their creativity.

However, try to understand that the entire identification sector isn't built to deal solely with people who have unique names. It's built to deal with multitudes of John Smiths and Mary Joneses, not to mention all the variations on their names and all the errors that occur in public records. It's an inherently fuzzy sort of data, and sometimes the only way to disambiguate one individual from another is through additional descriptors like height or weight, or yes, race.

Don't like that? Invent a better system.

 

[MErl]

I have to put my SSN on the forms or get a very long check due to someone with the same name. But CO is one of those states that don't use the national system.

 

[PapaG]

When we call nics we answer very a few questions....all with the touchtone phone. Enter your ffl. Enter your dealer number. Here in il, enter the transferee's foid number, is this for a long gun or handgun or both. After a few clicks and whirls, we are asked to enter the buyers ten digit date of birth. We then get one of three things back.....an approval number, a delay and number, or a denial.
After the required wait and pickup the 4473 goes in a box for that year to rest peacefully on the shelf for 20 years or it gets disturbed for a batf trace when we would then have to fax in a copy of the 4473 for that transaction.
Ours operates through the IL state police.
Batf can come in and audit anytime. If they come in, any gun in your possession better be in the bound sales logbook or repairs logbook. There is a little more to it, but da Feds don't know if you bought an ar, a 700 Rem, or a shotgun. Nor do they know if it was a Colt SAA or a Sig.

 

[MedWheeler]

I have never been offended by being asked to identify my race. I know few people who have been. My guess is that, to be offended by being asked to identify one's race, one must choose to be offended.

Barack Obama proudly proclaimed his race during his response to the 2010 US Census. I doubt he was offended that the question was even on there.

 

[murdoc rose]

Have you ever seen the warehouse in indiana jones? That's the final destination of that form.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Its not that hard guys. If your name is Bob Smith and when the run your check Bob Smith with the same date of birth (or other matching trait) appears they will have to investigate further to make sure it isn't you. The system gives hits for similar traits not total exact hits. My name is unique. I'm the only person in this country with my name and probably the only one ever so I have no problems without the SSN. If my name was more common I would use it to avoid any confusion. One dealer even argued that I HAD to put my SSN on it because EVERYONE gets delayed. I bet him I wouldn't need it and guess who was right? This guy.


BTW, You can thank all the <deleted> criminals who give different names, DOBs, SSNs, etc.....every time they get arrested. It means he might have gotten arrested and used your identifiers just by chance. I've seen guys with pages worth of aliases, DL #s, and SSNs.

 

[joeschmoe]

And place of birth? Really, there are too many people born in the same place on the same day, with the same name and SS#? Then why not use the state issued id to distugish us all?

 

[joeschmoe]

I have never been offended by being asked to identify my race. I know few people who have been. My guess is that, to be offended by being asked to identify one's race, one must choose to be offended.

Barack Obama proudly proclaimed his race during his response to the 2010 US Census. I doubt he was offended that the question was even on there.

I'm offended that the government is tracking that info and using it as a method of identification, when other, more reliable methods are required on the same form.

 

[blkbrd666]

Barack Obama proudly proclaimed his race during his response to the 2010 US Census.

Out of curiosity, which one did he proclaim?

 

[brboyer]

So my drivers license, name, address and date of birth were not enough to distiguish me from the other joeschmoes with the same drivers license, name, address and date of birth?

FYI: They don't get you DL number.

I never would have guessed that there was another person in my town with the same First Name, Last Name and Middle initial, same birth date, same birth State, until I picked up his prescription at the pharmacy we share (among the dozen or so available.)

Race, in an identification context is not offensive any more than hair color, eye color, height or weight.

 

[Birch Knoll]

And place of birth? Really, there are too many people born in the same place on the same day, with the same name and SS#? Then why not use the state issued id to distugish us all?

There are over 45,500 people named John Smith in this country. Assuming that these people are distributed evenly over an age span of 0-99 years, that's something like 36525 possible birthdates for those 45,500 John Smiths. That's 8,975 more John Smiths than possible unique birthdates.

In the real world, the distribution isn't even. And the records aren't perfect. And sometimes people make mistakes, variations or lie about their names and birthdates.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm offended that the government is tracking that info ...

There's no indication -- nor have I ever heard anyone even claim -- that the government is tracking that info.

Not ever.

On the other hand, if there are two John Wilsons in your office, one who's a black man and one who's of Asian extraction (it happens!), and someone comes into the office wanting to meet with John Wilson, are you going to beat around the bush trying to identify which one without ever touching the issue of "race?" How absurd would that be? How artificial and stilted, and how shamefaced and embarrassing. Few things indicate someone who really isn't "over it" than someone who can't comfortably even admit that (ssssshhh!) we don't all look the same!

And that's all this is. How would you describe yourself if identifying yourself to another? Put whatever you think is closest to true. The geneticists tell us it's all a fiction anyway and humans are (almost, with a very few exceptions) genetically practically identical and ancestrally so mixed as to all be "family." So it really doesn't matter what you put in the blank. (An interesting brief read: http://io9.com/5791530/why-humans-all-much-more-related-than-you-think)