Push for Electronic 4473 Form

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If they're actually clearing the files every 24, then why did he get delayed two weeks later?

If you buy more than two handguns in a short period of time, the FFL is required by law to file a form 3310.4 with the ATF reporting the transactions. That is probably a more likely explanation for your friend's problem in this case.

Having said that, I think there is plenty of reason to be skeptical about NICS data being erased as required.
 
This is an excuse to bottleneck the approval process into a single point of failure... the internet.

They will use the web-based system as a reason to reduce the call center volume, then not provide sufficient bandwidth or redundancy for the online application process. There will be service outages.

Just a way to halt gun sales, folks. If they can't legislate or mandate it out of existence, they'll just run gun ownership into the ground via shear incompetence.
 
You are right - up to the point where BATFE decides to do a "RED's" on you.
I am glad to hear that your 4473's are error free and that you have such a good working relationship with the Feds.

Please reread my post. No where did I say that my paperwork was error free, and that I have a good working relationship with the Feds. I merely stated that typing something doesn't make it more accurate than writing, that mistakes can happen either way, and therefore nothing is gained from typing into a PDF and printing it out.
 
Not a chance in hell!

This isn't just converting process from analog to digital. It will result, in all truthfulness, in a defacto firearm owner/purchaser database.

Mark my words: if this goes through, it won't be but a matter of months until the database is being used for something other the claimed intent. It's not like the government hasn't been pushing to spy on us outright, or trying to keep us in a national database of all residents, or anything.

Just look at what they want to do:

Enhance the utility and clarity of the information to be collected.

Sorry, but no: it should not be so straight forward as to allow the ATF to simply query the database to find statistics regarding anything on the 4473. This is, leaps and bounds, beyond what the 4473 was originally (stated) for.

Minimize the burden of consumers and dealers in completing the form through the use of automated, electronic and technological collection techniques, e.g., permitting electronic submission of responses to the questions asked.

With all the news with regard to e-voting machines, why would this be any different? IE, error prone and untraceable.

Reduce mistakes — no more violations for a "Y" instead of a "Yes".

That's a stupid violation and shouldn't a violation - also a very dumb justification for pushing on something like this.

Shorten ATF inspections — less time spent reviewing 4473s.

They won't need to spend time reviewing your documents, not locally. They'll have all the 4473s located centrally, all easily searchable, statistically indexed, and organized at the snap of a finger. The only reason they'd need to come is to slap your wrist (or worse) for a "violation".

If there is no paper trail and they have the "master copy" (as there is no true original with digital items, nothing which can be verified), what's to say they can't alter forms at will? Not to say they will resort to that under this administration, but it would at least be a possibility for them to leverage existing laws to incriminate a slew of exisitng firearm owners, postfacto.

Basically, it would work like this (in some fashion, I imagine): you fill all your data, digitally sign the form, and click submit on the screen. A copy is printed for the dealer (or may be stored for him digitally) and the digital "copy" is sent to the ATF. But it isn't a copy, just hte pertinent data fields you entered: name, date, address (state, city, street, number), and so on and so forth. This information then gets entered into a database.

Modern databases are designed for quick retrieval of data using any of the fields in the record. It would be trivial to determine if someone from your address has ever bought a gun - and, likewise, to find out if you have ever bought a gun. If there isn't a match, it could be "simulated" by combining your signature from your purchase, with the information from the person who lived at your address, and running it through the "4473 generator" again.

Basically they'd be technically able to run uninhibited and be able to do whatever they wanted, with the force of paperwork and 'evidence' behind them.
 
Please reread my post. No where did I say that my paperwork was error free, and that I have a good working relationship with the Feds. I merely stated that typing something doesn't make it more accurate than writing, that mistakes can happen either way, and therefore nothing is gained from typing into a PDF and printing it out.

Typing the data into a PDF isn't very accurate, either. It's more likely to be a custom application which can (and does) then feed the data into a PDF, but before doing so, it performs data validation. Or, clickable bullets (like you see on surveys) might be used. At any rate, the data can all be verified before a human even looks at it with relative ease.
 
A simple application that allows a customer to go through and answer each question in turn and then fill in a printable form would be nice and easy. It would help to fill in the form accurately and only allow certain types of answers in boxes which require only certain answers. The EPA and state enviro reporting agencies do similar stuff.

You would still need paper forms as a backup regardless. I would be interesting if they could set up something cheaper like a voting machine to spit out the paperwork.

The only way I can see to avoid registration is to fill out the firearm info separately after the background check is done.
 
Gun owners should fight this tooth and nail. That last thing "we" should want is "efficiency" in this area. This is kind of like "let's make the trains to Auschwitz run faster".
 
Well, I wouldn't presume to compare this issue to Auschwitz. I am interested in ways to make the process easier on dealers and customers. However, I don't necessarily think this is the only or best way to do it. I think there was a bill in process last year to help.

Short of eliminating the form and background check all together at least.
 
It's guaranteed now there is no return, somebody made the Nazi claim,


We will NEVER get rid of background checks, and to say Heller will get rid of them is ludacris, I think this is a good idea and I support it. I hate writing.
 
MechAg94 makes a good point. Don't submit it to the ATF electronically, but have a little kiosk or something with a touch screen where you answer the questions, when you are done it is printed out, and then all you need to do is sign the form, and check out.
 
Did your friend buy these guns at the same store?

The first two, yes. He went to a different place for the CZ. While I've bought several, I've never sold a handgun from the retail side, only long guns), and never more than one at a time. So that's probably why I don't know about the 3310.4. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Reduce mistakes — no more violations for a "Y" instead of a "Yes".

this isn't a violation per ATF...I asked my examiner when I had my FFL interview, and he said most dealers are anal about it and they really don't care about Abbreviations. What they do care about is that the NICS info is there and correct...
 
eForm-4473

I have been going back and forth on this issue and if the software used was not provided by the Govt. I would not have a problem with it. I did some research on the eForm 4473 and came across this company www.coloseumsoftware.com. So I called them.

They said the software they have does not transmit the eForm to the Govt, it is kept local on the dealers computer. In addition the data is encrypted and cannot be accessed if taken.

I downloaded it for free to see how it works. I have to say this is the best product I have seen in a long time. I also heard that this software was used by dealers to keep their license when it was going to get revoked. Were they at the shot show? I did not see them there!

Let me know the website again is www.coloseumsoftware.com and the number is 508-915-2242.
 
gunmerchant, are you truly an unbiased consumer talking about a product or do you have some financial interest in coloseum software?

You joined this site and made your first post to hype the product, and your second post nearly 7 months later is to hype the product.

A quick google search of your screen name picked up a couple other websites that you joined to promote your product.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2729
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271024
 
NO, NO, NO, with a giant HELL NO on top.

We should never, ever, ever, do anything to facilitate the transition from a widely distributed paper based system to an electronic system.


*If* any kind of system that could even theoretically be turned into a registry exists, we must always consider how easy or difficult it would be for malign forces to actually convert it into a centralized registry.

Right now, that cost and difficulty is so high that it is generally considered to be infeasible, and that's exactly how we want it.


While my inside guys tell me that the ATF *actually* does destroy the records they're required to destroy every 24 hours, this destruction, and in fact any electronic data destruction is fundamentally unprovable.


No, we so totally don't want to go there. The benefits are slight, and the future mischief is great.


Sorry, but the NSSF blew it on this one.
 
I have been watching from a distance. Watching all of you discussing this topic and no one has mentioned it. Where do you think the Govt came out with this idea? Have you not connected the dots yet?

It’s crazy that everyone is talking about it but no one is doing anything. And yes I am "bias" I bought the software for my company so that I can protect my business (and I am not getting paid for this either). Not that I need to explain myself, however everyone gets excited when a new firearm is added to the market. Here is product that is protecting dealers from going out of BUSINESS! It shocks me that it is not being discussed.

Seeing as you have shown little investigation skills, swallow this pill!

FACT 10 years ago there was over 100,000 FFL dealers, now there is less than 69,000. There are fewer newer FFL applications than ever, and more dealers going out of business because of violations.

Rely on the NSSF or the NRA? In case you’re just waking up, Gas prices are over $4.00 a gallon!
 
I understand the resistance to a computerized system, but please tell me how this is different that what is done now?

When you fill out the form 4473, the dealer calls it in and reads the information to the person on the other end. I would assume THAT person enters it into a computer system. So as I see it the only thing that is changing is WHERE the information is entered into the system.

Or am I missing something?
 
Or am I missing something?

Sort of. When I call in a check, I give the buyer's name, DOB, gender, race, and whether you are buying a hand gun, long gun, or both.

By law, this information is supposed to be deleted every 24 hours. Even if it isn't, they only know that Joe Smith, age 42, white, bought a hand gun, or a long gun, or both.

I don't give them your address, your Driver License number, or (most importantly) the make, model, caliber, or serial number of the gun you are buying.

This information is on the 4473, but it does not go into any computer.
 
Even if the actual applications were simply filled out and printed, it would be trivial to collect all data and send it to the ATF site - through spyware or some other system-level process.
 
Or am I missing something?

In addition to all of the information NOT given to the computerized records, there is also at least a minimal level of plausible deniability.

A NICS record proves little more than that some FFL made a phone call.

Even if the actual applications were simply filled out and printed, it would be trivial to collect all data and send it to the ATF site

Actually, harvesting all of that paper, scanning it, and ingesting it into a centralized database is far from trivial, it is a huge, expensive, and brittle undertaking.

It is an undertaking that can be prevented and thwarted by any of a number of legal, political, or parliamentary means.

It is also an undertaking that could not be done by an force by *enemy* at all, given the ease of dropping a match on a pile of paper.

And so I'm not inclined to give it to them for "free" at all.
 
At the last local FFL meeting hosted by the ATF, they emphasized how important it was to take simple precautions to keep 4473s safe from harm.

The ATF agent giving the talk mentioned that most shops in Katrina's path lost all of their paperwork due to water damage. They suggested that if you were in a flood zone that you store 4473s in the upper file cabinet drawers, or store them on high shelves, etc.

I only mention this because it is possible that this reasoning will be used to legislate a "secure" electronic database of 4473s that can't be destroyed by fire or weather.
 
Terrible idea. Far too much potential for abuse from both government and 3rd parties.
 
Can't you just have a form that gets filled out correctly by way of electronic editing; the same as you can't post "some" words on some forums, and print it out. Why get the ATF involved at all (electronically) they aren't now, just add an electronic form...as an option - keep the rest of the process the same - why not.
 
In such a paperless system, would every table at a gun show be required to have a pc or laptop? (excluding the beef jerky and hot sauce tables, of course.)
 
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