Push for Electronic 4473 Form

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Did my ARFCOM story have no effect on anybody?
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Do you have a link to the full story? If he only purchased guns within 100 miles of his house, all it would take is a few man hours worth of phone calls to trace all of his purchases. "Hi, this is Agent X with the ATF. We need to verify whether John Quagmire Public, DOB 4/12/74, has ever purchased a firearm at your store. We'll wait on the line while you check. Oh, he did? We'll be sending an agent by to collect a copy of the 4473. If you could have that waiting for us it sure would be a help."

If he was from Florida and had purchased a long gun while on vacation in Colorado, and the ATF had that 4473, I'd find that very suspicious.

Also, I might be mistaken about this, but I don't believe the ATF has anything to do with the NICS logs. NICS is run by the FBI. If anyone is saving data, it is the FBI. I'm not saying it isn't possible that they are helping each other out, but when you are breaking the law it helps to inform as few people as possible that you are doing it. Why break the law keeping illegal records to stick your neck out for another agency? Mainly I point this out because, as gun owners, we are so untrusting of the ATF that we automatically assume they are keeping NICS logs, even though they aren't in charge of the system.

I'm not saying that they keep the data or not, but most of the stories posted on the internet have law abiding explanations. Fiero isn't alone . . . he came into this thread fairly sure that logs were kept, because he didn't know about an actual paper trail that occurs when someone buys more than one handgun. He stated that the only solution that made sense was that the gov't was keeping logs, when in fact there was a very simple "other" solution. I don't mean to single him out. Many people believe the exact same thing.
 
At the last local FFL meeting hosted by the ATF, they emphasized how important it was to take simple precautions to keep 4473s safe from harm.

The ATF agent giving the talk mentioned that most shops in Katrina's path lost all of their paperwork due to water damage. They suggested that if you were in a flood zone that you store 4473s in the upper file cabinet drawers, or store them on high shelves, etc.

I only mention this because it is possible that this reasoning will be used to legislate a "secure" electronic database of 4473s that can't be destroyed by fire or weather.
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Hmmm, maybe all of my purchases should be from small gun shops in flood prone areas from now on....
 
I briefly skimmed the thread. It appears there was a crooked dealer, selling a lower receiver (presumably with a stock) and then telling customers they could come back later and buy a 7" barreled upper, thus creating the potential for illegal SBRs.

When the ATF busted the dealer, they went through all of his 4473s, and then they did some old fashioned detective works by checking to see who bought an AR lower from the dealer. They then used the address on the 4473 to go see if the owners of the lowers had 16"+ barrels or something shorter. They had no warrant, but they asked permission to see the lowers in questions.

None of this information was obtained from an illegal log of NICS checks.
 
Yeah, also it is believed there is a log of every time NCIS is accessed and a date and name are put on the could cross reference with that, maybe I'm in the TFHC but I have a feeling if confiscations happen they will have some way of finding them.
 
In such a paperless system, would every table at a gun show be required to have a pc or laptop? (excluding the beef jerky and hot sauce tables, of course.)
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Well, if you are going to exclude 90% of the tables, why penalize the 10% that sell guns? ;)
 
Geeeez...:banghead: There is NOTHING good about this. You can best believe that .gov will turn this into a centralized registration database. They basically have one already with the 4473 forms. The only thing is that each FFL acts like its own "server", keeping the "data" at their physical location. And if the ATF needs to visit, they will just arrive at the FFL, go through the "server" (file cabinet or whatever), and sift through the "data" (4473 forms). It's about control. And like one of the previous posters mentioned, this idea came from FFL's themselves. This is also about money. As much as it pains me, FFL's are doing what they can to survive, even if that means coming up with some more "helpful" means for .gov to gather information....:banghead:

This will be abused.
 
Geeeez...:banghead: There is NOTHING good about this. You can best believe that .gov will turn this into a centralized registration database. They basically have one already with the 4473 forms. The only thing is that each FFL acts like its own "server", keeping the "data" at their physical location. And if the ATF needs to visit, they will just arrive at the FFL, go through the "server" (file cabinet or whatever), and sift through the "data" (4473 forms). It's about control. And like one of the previous posters mentioned, this idea came from FFL's themselves. This is also about money. As much as it pains me, FFL's are doing what they can to survive, even if that means coming up with some more "helpful" means for .gov to gather information....:banghead:

This will be abused.
 
Geeeez...:banghead: There is NOTHING good about this. You can best believe that .gov will turn this into a centralized registration database. They basically have one already with the 4473 forms. The only thing is that each FFL acts like its own "server", keeping the "data" at their physical location. And if the ATF needs to visit, they will just arrive at the FFL, go through the "server" (file cabinet or whatever), and sift through the "data" (4473 forms). It's about control. And like one of the previous posters mentioned, this idea came from FFL's themselves. This is also about money. As much as it pains me, FFL's are doing what they can to survive, even if that means coming up with some more "helpful" means for .gov to gather information....:banghead:

This will be abused.
 
Geeeez...:banghead: There is NOTHING good about this. You can best believe that .gov will turn this into a centralized registration database. They basically have one already with the 4473 forms. The only thing is that each FFL acts like its own "server", keeping the "data" at their physical location. And if the ATF needs to visit, they will just arrive at the FFL, go through the "server" (file cabinet or whatever), and sift through the "data" (4473 forms). It's about control. And like one of the previous posters mentioned, this idea came from FFL's themselves. This is also about money. As much as it pains me, FFL's are doing what they can to survive, even if that means coming up with some more "helpful" means for .gov to gather information....:banghead:

This will be abused.
 
BREAKING NEWS! Coloseum Software is releasing a free version.

Better pay attention! I have been accused of being bias of this company, but if they helped out Reds Trading Post and alot of other dealers from the ATF they have my support. Also they have been endorsed by the GOA.

The ATF is releasing a FREE software to do eform-4473 in a few weeks and it includes a Database!!!!! HECK NO! I am not going to use a free software that is provided by the ATF so they have access to my computer!

Coloseum Software has been stalled by the ATF because their software does a better job and their Database is not linked or accessable to the ATF. You can all confirm this with Ryan at Reds Trading Post!

So as a great company.......... to combat this (I use their software)..Coloseum Software annouced this morning they are going to provide 1 free copy of their software to any FFL dealer. Not a trialware, not limited features a full version of the software.

read all about it and pass the word.
https://www.coloseumsoftware.com:444/Forum/default.aspx?postid=50#50
 
And just how long do you think it will take the feds to integrate digital 4473 info with Real ID info (when that gets off the ground).

And once that happens, how long do you think it will be before the feds lose the data to some 13 year old hacker? Not like the feds haven't already had massive data security problems at the VA and Los Alamos...

Really. Bad. Idea.
 
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