Forward assist

[TTundra]

Given that you're really not supposed to ride the charging handle forward, but just let it go, under realistic circumstances would you do this and thereby induce this malfunction? And if you do get a malfunction as a result of this, well, its shooter induced, n'est pas? Why do you need a forward assist? How about just not inducing the malfunction in the first place?

Have you ever hunted with an AR and were in a situation to pull the CH slowly to be quiet? Possibly instructed by a guide to only chamber before the shot?

There are instances where this happens, if you are a hunter. It is a very useful and needed feature for many. Maybe not in your experience, but in others, it is.

 

[Billy Shears]

Have you ever hunted with an AR and were in a situation to pull the CH slowly to be quiet? Possibly instructed by a guide to only chamber before the shot?

There are instances where this happens, if you are a hunter. It is a very useful and needed feature for many. Maybe not in your experience, but in others, it is.

It must have been mentioned at least five times already on this thread, and I even covered it again it in my last post -- the very one to which you are replying -- when I said "...using the divot in the bolt carrier to push the BCG forward and ensure it's all the way forward, seating a round fully is something that you only need to do in those rare instances where you might want to quietly chamber a round."

You don't need the forward assist for this! As so many have stated before, you can use the flat, milled out area on the side of the bolt carrier and just push it forward with your thumb. This is easily accomplished. The dust cover will come open, exposing it, when you pull back the charging handle. If you are needing to quietly chamber a round, then clearly you haven't been shooting yet (or you wouldn't need stealth), so the bolt carrier is not going to be hot. And it's not like you need more purchase on the bolt carrier than you can get with a thumb on the flat side of it -- in a properly functioning AR, even a very light pressure on the bolt carrier will push it fully forward after riding the charging handle forward.

Sure, if your rifle has a FA, you can use it for what you describe. If it doesn't, you are just as well able to fully close the BCG with the method I have just described. A FA is not necessary.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I have used them on those crappy beat to heck FN's in boot camp in 1996. Other than that, I use it when hunting groundhogs. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

 

[TTundra]

You don't need the forward assist for this! As so many have stated before, you can use the flat, milled out area on the side of the bolt carrier and just push it forward with your thumb. This is easily accomplished. The dust cover will come open, exposing it, when you pull back the charging handle. If you are needing to quietly chamber a round, then clearly you haven't been shooting yet (or you wouldn't need stealth), so the bolt carrier is not going to be hot. And it's not like you need more purchase on the bolt carrier than you can get with a thumb on the flat side of it -- in a properly functioning AR, even a very light pressure on the bolt carrier will push it fully forward after riding the charging handle forward.

So clearly, you haven't been in the situation to do this. If you have, you would know its a heck of a lot easier to stay in position, right hand on the grip, and tap the FA. Especially with gloves on, which also guessing by your response, you have not tried with winter/insulated gloves.

You can dance around it all you want. Its much easier in this situation to have the FA then push the BCG forward via the 'divot'. I can stick my hand out a window to signal a turn, but hitting the directional switch is just easier.

 

[meanmrmustard]

It takes no more effort to push the divot than to push the FA. I have done both with gloves. It is not a difficult task to fathom.

Rolling my window down is a manual affair, so that analogy is far fetched to say the least.

 

[TTundra]

Rolling my window down is a manual affair, so that analogy is far fetched to say the least

Insert whatever analogy you want. "back up camera is a nice feature to have but isn't needed but is nice when hooking up a trailer"

Point being, its there, its has its uses.

 

[Billy Shears]

So clearly, you haven't been in the situation to do this. If you have, you would know its a heck of a lot easier to stay in position, right hand on the grip, and tap the FA. Especially with gloves on, which also guessing by your response, you have not tried with winter/insulated gloves.

You guess wrong.

You can dance around it all you want. Its much easier in this situation to have the FA then push the BCG forward via the 'divot'. I can stick my hand out a window to signal a turn, but hitting the directional switch is just easier.

It is not much easier. It is slightly easier. As I said, I have ARs both with and without, so I know this from experience. And is that slight difference enough to warrant the extra cost in manufacture to put the FA on the gun, and putting another opening in the receiver through which foreign matter can possibly enter (or from which gas can escape into the face of left-handed shooters)? That was one of the objections the Air Force and Marine Corps raised back when they were contesting this, and the army wanted it and they didn't -- it added to the per unit cost of the gun, and why have that eat up extra money out of your budget if there is, at best, a negligible benefit?

As I said, I've got rifles with the FA. It's presence isn't a big deal to me. I just don't find I have any need for it. But if I were building a gun (again), I'll leave it off. If I were buying them for an army, and budgetary constraints were an issue, I'd almost certainly eliminate it as an cost-adding feature of dubious value.

 

[TTundra]

You guess wrong.

Quote:
You can dance around it all you want. Its much easier in this situation to have the FA then push the BCG forward via the 'divot'. I can stick my hand out a window to signal a turn, but hitting the directional switch is just easier.
It is not much easier. It is slightly easier. As I said, I have ARs both with and without, so I know this from experience. And is that slight difference enough to warrant the extra cost in manufacture to put the FA on the gun, and putting another opening in the receiver through which foreign matter can possibly enter (or from which gas can escape into the face of left-handed shooters)? That was one of the objections the Air Force and Marine Corps raised back when they were contesting this, and the army wanted it and they didn't -- it added to the per unit cost of the gun, and why have that eat up extra money out of your budget if there is, at best, a negligible benefit?

As I said, I've got rifles with the FA. It's presence isn't a big deal to me. I just don't find I have any need for it. But if I were building a gun (again), I'll leave it off. If I were buying them for an army, and budgetary constraints were an issue, I'd almost certainly eliminate it as an cost-adding feature of dubious value.

Doubtful. Thats all fine and dandy, but on a Elk hunt later this year with a JP Hunter in 6.5CM (which I had done with the FA, no extra cost) I'll feel much more at ease tapping that FA when good money and lots of meat is on the line, rather then reaching over to push against a divot. I'll just stick with what works.

To each, their own.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Hey, if it ain't eating, dont feed it.

They're on my uppers, but I don't use em, need em, nor care if they're there. Its just another man made part to cause a conundrum down the line, so I avoid it entirely. I've let the bolt spring home in my treestand, in the dark, and I kill my fair share of deer and coyotes.

I've yet to starve.

 

[eldon519]

If folks are getting this heated and fired up over FA usage, we must have some pretty bored members amongst us.

 

[kBob]

Billy,

Believe it or not I do know how to charge an AR15 and have been doing so since the late '60's

The point was to induce the type of malfunction that is not uncommon and is the type that can be cleared.

Did you actually induce the malfunction and then try to clear it by simply snatching back the charging handle?

As I said don't harass me until you have done so.

Induced stoppages that require training to clear is a normal part of training, such as when one mixes a dummy round in with live rounds at random in a loaded magazine, or when one simulates a stove pipe by placing a spent case in an ejection port as a round is being fed.

The intent here was to induce a stoppage of the sort that I have seen MANY times with the M-16A1 from the very day I first fired an XM-16E1.

Again using your thumb in the ejection port dust cover cut out on the BCG certainly can work on a cold gun, but may result in injuries on a hot gun or cuts from the edges of the ejection port. I have personally witnessed both.

I am reminded of my high school days and the multiple claims of "We do it all the time and nothing ever happens" Just because that is your experience, nothing happening, does not make it a good idea.

The only times I have seen an FA "make it worse" was when someone FAILED to use the FA to insure the extractor was snapped over a rim before attempting to eject the round involved in the failure. I am convinced that the "ka-booms" that resulted from FA use were from using the FA to attempt to chamber a second round on top of the failed round that failed to extract.

Here is a question. If using the FA is "dangerous" or "More likely to make things worse", why has no one successfully sued Colt or any other maker for including such a faulty and dangerous system?

Look guys, we all have different experiences. How many of you have seen an AR with a shattered bolt? How about an extractor cracked off? How about a recoil spring tube cracked such that it and the stock fly off and the recoil spring dangling out the back of the lower? How about a gas tube so filled with crud the rifle does not get enough gas to cycle? How about a rifle with the firing pin retaining pin broken and the firing pin dumped into the trigger mechanism and well and truly preventing the action from opening? Ever seen an M-16A1 with the auto sear spring broken so that when the rifle is set on AUTO it becomes a straight pull repeater? Ever seen an M-16A1 that for whatever reason had the hammer pin walk and allowed the hammer to get wedged in at an angle?

I have been around ARs long enough and often enough that I have personally examined ALL those problems on the rifles that suffered them. I have seen a host of stoppages on ARs and seen used and used the FA successfully MANY times.

-kBob

 

[Billy Shears]

Billy,

Believe it or not I do know how to charge an AR15 and have been doing so since the late '60's

The point was to induce the type of malfunction that is not uncommon and is the type that can be cleared.

Did you actually induce the malfunction and then try to clear it by simply snatching back the charging handle?

As I said don't harass me until you have done so.

Induced stoppages that require training to clear is a normal part of training, such as when one mixes a dummy round in with live rounds at random in a loaded magazine, or when one simulates a stove pipe by placing a spent case in an ejection port as a round is being fed.

I have induced double feeds before. I did it in basic training in the army. I have done it on the police department -- they gave us three orange plastic dummy rounds for that very purpose. I still have them. I haven't seen one yet that absolutely required the forward assist to clear. And in fact, I have seen that if you use the forward assist before clearing the double feed, you'll make things worse. Once you've cleared the thing away, you don't need the FA either. Your rifle should feed fine, unless you've got a bad magazine.

The intent here was to induce a stoppage of the sort that I have seen MANY times with the M-16A1 from the very day I first fired an XM-16E1.

Again using your thumb in the ejection port dust cover cut out on the BCG certainly can work on a cold gun, but may result in injuries on a hot gun or cuts from the edges of the ejection port. I have personally witnessed both.

Somebody been sharpening their ejection ports? I am not disputing you, but I can say that none of the scores of ARs I have handled or fired over the past few decades has ever had such sharp edges on the ejection port.

And again, the whole point of using the thumb is quietly chambering a round before any shooting has been done (hence the need for quiet). If the bolt is sticking after you've heated the gun up, you've got another issue -- the gun is jamming up on something, or you don't have it lubricated well enough, or something -- and you need to fix it.

I am reminded of my high school days and the multiple claims of "We do it all the time and nothing ever happens" Just because that is your experience, nothing happening, does not make it a good idea.

The only times I have seen an FA "make it worse" was when someone FAILED to use the FA to insure the extractor was snapped over a rim before attempting to eject the round involved in the failure. I am convinced that the "ka-booms" that resulted from FA use were from using the FA to attempt to chamber a second round on top of the failed round that failed to extract.

Which would seem to support my side of the argument, no?

Here is a question. If using the FA is "dangerous" or "More likely to make things worse", why has no one successfully sued Colt or any other maker for including such a faulty and dangerous system?

Just what do you imagine there is about jamming up a gun that would result in a lawsuit? Product liability lawsuits result from equipment failing in such a way as to injure or kill a user or other party. Your gun jamming is not that species of failure. It's just a jam. You clear it, and you go on shooting.

Look guys, we all have different experiences. How many of you have seen an AR with a shattered bolt? How about an extractor cracked off? How about a recoil spring tube cracked such that it and the stock fly off and the recoil spring dangling out the back of the lower? How about a gas tube so filled with crud the rifle does not get enough gas to cycle? How about a rifle with the firing pin retaining pin broken and the firing pin dumped into the trigger mechanism and well and truly preventing the action from opening? Ever seen an M-16A1 with the auto sear spring broken so that when the rifle is set on AUTO it becomes a straight pull repeater? Ever seen an M-16A1 that for whatever reason had the hammer pin walk and allowed the hammer to get wedged in at an angle?

None of which, if you'll permit the observation, sounds as if the presence or absence of a FA would make any difference one way or the other.

I have been around ARs long enough and often enough that I have personally examined ALL those problems on the rifles that suffered them. I have seen a host of stoppages on ARs and seen used and used the FA successfully MANY times.

-kBob

But the question is, was it really necessary? Was the FA used simply because it was there? And would it have been possible to clear the malfunction without it? The fact of the matter is that FA was added over the objections of the rifle's chief designer, beside whose knowledge and experience of the weapon, both ours combined pales into insignificance. And there have been any number of weapons with non-reciprocating charging handles, which provided no means to force a bolt closed when it doesn't go all the way into battery (e.g. BAR., FAL, G3, Ag m/42, et al. not to mention most species of machine guns), and they have worked just fine, in military service, under the harshest of conditions. Why would the AR have a unique necessity for this feature?

 

[Jeff White]

kBob,

I was issued my first M16A1 in December 1974 and I used A1s and A2s as an Infantryman until I retired from the Army in November 2003. I went into law enforcement full time after retiring from the Army. I was responsible for developing the patrol rifle program for the department I worked for.

I've spent more time then I even care to think about using the AR15/M16 system in the field in every climate on the planet in all kinds of conditions. I've planned and run every type of live fire range from 25 meter zero range up through a platoon live fire. I've probably been physically present when a million or more rounds have went down range.

I've taken professional training at my own expense from Jim Crews, Pat Rogers and the late Louis Awerbuck. I teach both tactical carbine and patrol rifle courses. All in all, I have 41 years professional experience with the weapon.

And my experience with the Forward Assist is exactly the opposite of yours. I've seen every kind of malfunction possible, from a simple failure to fire, to double feeds, to seeing a case get stuck between the gas tube and the top of the upper receiver, I have no idea how the shooter managed to induce that but I've seen it 3 times.

I've seen bolts fail, lugs break off and bolts break in half at the cam pin hole. I've seen two instances where high primers in reloaded ammunition caused rifles to fire out of battery and bulge the end of the case and bend the extractor.

I still have yet to see a malfunction that was cleared by use of the forward assist. I have however, seen plenty that were made worse when a soldier or a police officer with Army experience used SPORTS to attempt to clear a malfunction.

I have nothing against a forward assist, five of my six ARs have one. I just no longer use them or teach their use.

 

[RevJim]

I was issued my first M16A1 in August, 1971, Ft Leonard Wood, MO. We shot the devil out of those things and when they got cruddy during the day I often had to use the FA to seat a round. I wouldn't slap it with the heel of my hand, I'd just press it with my thumb. I never had a problem myself. I had orders for Nam, but they changed them, sent me to Germany, I was in an arty unit but we qualified a lot with the M16Ai, and when it was cold oftentimes a round would need a bit of a nudge to chamber. So for me...I feel a FA is natural. I feel a bit uncomfortable with an AR w/o one, ha. I also like a dust cover. Whatever works is what I say...I just want all the reliability I can get out of any and all weapons I use.

 

[kBob]

Jeff,

Well we are gonna have to agree to disagree on the FA.

As to those *%&#*+ spent cases shoved into the charging handle and wedged in with the gas tube......

I think those were caused by a build up of crud in the ejector. I think the ejector failed to shove the case out because it was stuck down and the returning bolt just shoved the case up there. Had one guy's rifle that did it several times in one day and had others show upon occasion. As removing that little roll pin and then chasing down the ejector and spring were depot level I decided to take the bolt and lock it face up with wood blocks in a vise. Then I used a dental pick to depress the extractor and flooded the area with Rifle Bore Cleaner and pushed that extractor in and out repeatedly . Lots of black crud floated or oozed out and eventually it started to get cleaner with new applications. Gas tube jams went away. On one rifle repeated depression and release of the extractor coughed up a teenie tiny sliver of brass that I rather imagine was rolling around and occasionally getting in the way.

My most interesting mechanical failures with troops involved bits of pipe cleaner, match sticks or tooth picks being used as substitutes for the extractor pin or firing pin retaining pin. Despite the missing original parts no one knew how those things had gotten in their rifle and no armorer could explain how those things made it past him.

In my experience a forty pound solid block of titanium can not be made GI proof.

-kBob

 

[Tirod]

The original Stoner design was not equipped with a Forward Assist, AR10 or M16. It was added, later, by Command who instructed Colt to incorporate it.

Command was raised on the '03 and Garand, therefore they had a manual bolt operation concept which they applied to a self loading design. Command ignored the Subject Matter Experts and reacted to their own prejudices.

It's there now, so be it. You can pay extra and get an upper without it, but for the most part there is only an aesthetic incentive.

I hunt with AR's, I lock and load in the parking lot. Is that noisy, sure. So is driving into the lot - I hear it up to a half mile away on a quiet day inside the conservation area. Game can, too. It's a common sound in that parcel as it's also used for horseback riding and hiking. Game hear vehicles in semi rural areas a lot, and it's not always a danger signal. They note location and remain aware, just as they would hearing a coyote bark or whatever. If you are miles from the next inhabitant in wilderness, then maybe it would be different.

Does the first round always chamber? Son of a gun, I've seen it not happen the way I assumed it should have, and recently, too. I loaned my 6.8 for my son to use and the first time he spotted a deer at 55m it went click. Now we have a reason to 1) press check before departure, and 2) ride the handle quietly. Having owned an HK with thumb grooves on the bolt, it's not just the AR that uses the dimple on it for that procedure. I've wondered why that isn't the next Great Thing for advanced bolts. It makes more sense than the FA and it was done a lot earlier. Goes to Command not being Subject Matter Experts and buying off with additional parts to push on serrations where a thumb could anyway.

Sure, you could remove the mag and know which round was supposed to be on the left or right - the lastest ones moved the follower hump to the opposite side. Or just use a magic marker and if the black round is gone, it must be chambered. But you also introduce the issue of not getting the mag in deep enough and hearing it hit the ground on the first shot.

As for Guide who won't let the client carry loaded, I don't blame them. I wouldn't go out with a Guide who didn't trust me to be loaded. If he's guiding I would think he's behind directing travel, not in front in the way of my line of sight. I guess some do it their way.

I've been coming round to the FA's helpfulness now that the Dreaded Click has emerged as a good reason. It can be helpful when hunting and Murphy passed by to sprinkle you with his magic. As for stomping on it to make things worse, tho, it goes to those who would do that. Better to eject and try again. In the heat of combat you aren't too worried about a little bit of chambering noise with live rounds whistling by from a dozen unsuppressed weapons.

 

[MachIVshooter]

As meanmrmustard pointed out above, using the divot in the bolt carrier to push the BCG forward and ensure it's all the way forward, seating a round fully is something that you only need to do in those rare instances where you might want to quietly chamber a round. The bolt carrier will not be hot, and it's not going to brand your thumb. It doesn't get hot until after you've done quite a bit of shooting, by which time all need for stealth is long gone. If your bolt carrier is not going all the way forward after you've shot the gun enough to get it hot, you've got other problems, and using your thumb to press the BCG all the way forward is not the solution to them (neither is the FA).

Are you saying you cannot possibly imagine a combat scenario where a person might need stealth after a gunfight?

Suppose you're talking about urban combat, as we saw much of in Iraq. Suppose you have combatants quite literally firing at each other from adjacent rooms. Suppose that both sides have ceased firing after a time and are trying to determine if any of the enemy remain alive. At first they'll listen, then they'll move in if auditory examination suggests that the opposition is defeated. Now suppose you're one of the soldiers who is still alive, and the enemy is moving in on you. You're concealed, but you will be discovered. Your rifle is empty. You need to reload, but letting the CH go will be a dead giveaway, and that carrier is scorching hot now because you just burned through 3 or 4 magazines in the fight. There's probably enough ambient noise from the enemy's movements, though, that easing the carrier forward will go undetected. Suddenly that FA button is useful.

Hollywood-esque? Perhaps a bit, but feasible nonetheless. Point being, it's a largely superfluous feature until it's useful, and it's presence is not problematic. Kinda like fire extinguishers.

 

[RevJim]

Mr Billy Shears- I too have taken several courses in the last 12 yrs or so where we were taught to pull the charging handle back, let her go and if that doesn't do it, transition to the handgun. Of course, I was not issued a handgun when I was in the Army and some guys might have to use their AR when they do not have a sidearm on them. If that happened to me, God forbid, and I am close enough, I will fall back to my muscle memory of my Bayonet Training and break my little M4, ha, but I "might" get away too! Its always good to go over scenarios in your mind...

 

[Robert]

Four pages of yes, no and maybe are plenty for this one.