Isn't the forward assist on an AR a dumb idea?

[C-grunt]

Stoner didn't like it but that's not the first time that engineers and end users disagreed on something.

If you are saying you can close the bolt by pushing on the dust cover cut out then you are acknowledging the need to close the bolt. It's just a harder way to do the same thing the FA does.

 

[marksman13]

Try that with a hot bolt after a few magazines fired through the rifle.

As myself and others have stated, we have used the forward assist in combat and in all type of environments. I sure won't be using my thumb on a hot bolt.

For the OP and others that think the forward assist has no use, then buy uppers without it. For the rest of us, we will keep the forward assist as it does have its place whether in combat or for hunting.

I’ve been on the two-way range, myself, and as stated, the FA serves a purpose. But, with gloves, pushing a hot bolt forward still isn’t an issue and in a hunting rifle, that’s a moot point. I’ve got rifles with and without them. Hunting rifles get slick side uppers around my house to save weight and to remove one more snagging point. In a potential fighting rifle, I like having the FA in place.

 

[marksman13]

Stoner didn't like it but that's not the first time that engineers and end users disagreed on something.

If you are saying you can close the bolt by pushing on the dust cover cut out then you are acknowledging the need to close the bolt. It's just a harder way to do the same thing the FA does.

It’s not any harder than pushing the FA. It’s literally the same motion. I’m not arguing for or against an FA. I really don’t care what anyone else puts on their rifles, I just know there is more than one way to skin this damn cat.

 

[12Bravo20]

As I said in my first reply to this thread, talking about the forward assist leads to arguments just like threads about what oil/lube to use.

 

[mcb]

No forward assist, no ejection port cover, not dead yet...

 

[film495]

It seems there's still many that don't understand Recipiating vs non reciprocating charging handles and why the AR needs a FA.

oh OK, I get it. The forward assist fills the blank of a reciprocating handle, allowing the benefits of the non reciprocating charge handle. just never thought about it honestly. Only shot an AR a few times and infrequently.

 

[jmorris]

or the HK in Swedish service with a serrated thumb cutout:

Thought this one was interesting being an “original sp1“ without fwd assist but it does have a fed assist carrier.

The same depression that allows the dust cover to function as a dust cover, can be used for the nudging forward quietly.



Already being loaded is even better though.

 

[tark]

(Even new out of the box 1911s and to me "Mil Spec" is not a good four letter word as it's lowest bid government contract)

But don't forget that the products made by that "Lowest bidder " still must meet rigid quality control and durability standards with ongoing inspections during the production run. You cant float a low ball bid, get the contract and then ship lower quality junk. I won't say it hasn't been done, but this kind of behavior almost always gets caught.

 

[tark]

Thought this one was interesting being an “original sp1“ without fwd assist but it does have a fed assist carrier.

The same depression that allows the dust cover to function as a dust cover, can be used for the nudging forward quietly.

View attachment 1177781

Already being loaded is even better though.

Re-read the first sentence in post # 50.

 

[herrwalther]

Stoner thought it was a bad idea...

Stoner didn't serve a single day in combat as far as I can tell. So his design was purely from an engineering standpoint and did not have combat in mind. Prior, Stoner's engineering claim to fame was the AR-5, a survival rifle. Stoner did design the rifle without a chrome lined barrel. Mistake one. Stoner was instrumental, if not the deciding factor, in selecting IMR 4475 as the propellant when CONARC asked for a step down cartridge from his AR-10 design. Huge mistake 2. So Stoner not liking the forward assist, doesn't really mean squat. By comparison, Kalashinkov served in the Russian Army starting in 1938 as a tanker. While hospitalized was inspired to make the AK-47 from combining a similar operating system from the M1 Garand and the intermediate cartridge of the STG-44. Two amazing firearms in their own right.

John Moses Browning, among many other firearms, designed the 1911. At first without a thumb or grip safety, as the M1900 in 38 ACP. The Army required both a thumb safety and grip safety to be added with Cavalry troops in mind. General John Thompson required a .45 diameter. Do you think we would have the 1911 today if JMB flipped off the Army? Likely not. JMB, like Stoner, didn't think his 1900 needed either. Sometimes the government and engineers come together to make something good or inventive. Like the AR-15/M16 forward assist and the 1911 we have today.

 

[MikeInOr]

Most all of my semi-auto military rifles have reciprocating handles (Garand, M1 Carbine, FAL, SVT40, Mas 49/56, AK, etc.) which pretty much voids the need for a forward assist. My one military rifle with a non-reciprocating charging handle, HK-93, has never had a feed issue where I have needed a forward assist. Honestly, I am not a big fan of the AR design like most here are. I REALLY don't like the rear charging handle! A side charging handle is MUCH more natural to me. I think I read yesterday that the new SIG M5 (MCX spear adopted by US military) has a side charging handle as well as the rear charging handle and the only reason the rear charging handle is there is to keep the AR guys happy. I also prefer the option of a folding stock which isn't really compatible with the AR buffer tube (which has also been eliminated on the M5). I am more than ready to move out our current AR era and move beyond the Stone(r) age.

 

[Mk-211]

AR15 and AR9 Folding Stock Adapter Gen. 3 - Cosmetically Blemished

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Innovation is a great thing, especially if you want a folding stock on an AR.

 

[MikeInOr]

AR15 and AR9 Folding Stock Adapter Gen. 3 - Cosmetically Blemished

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Innovation is a great thing, especially if you want a folding stock on an AR.

The closest thing I own to a AR is a Sig MCX Spear LT with a folding stock. My state has been pushing to shut down sales of AR rifles so I figured I should finally buy one while I still can. I figured if I was going to buy one I would only buy one and so I would get the best one I could. I wish the Spear LT had the side charging handle like the Spear in 277 Sig furry (6.8 x 51mm) does. I really don't find the rear charging handle comfortable to use... maybe with time and practice I will get more comfortable with it.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I've got three with FAs and one without. So far I've never used it the FA except just to see how it worked. Of course, that doesn't mean I never will. Emotionally I kind of like having it there but I'll admit to liking the sleek design and lighter weight of not having it.

 

[mgmorden]

Do I need one? Not really. Does it hurt anything? Not really.

As such my feelings are completely neutral on it.

 

[Chuck R.]

Most all of my semi-auto military rifles have reciprocating handles (Garand, M1 Carbine, FAL, SVT40, Mas 49/56, AK, etc.) which pretty much voids the need for a forward assist. My one military rifle with a non-reciprocating charging handle, HK-93, has never had a feed issue where I have needed a forward assist. Honestly, I am not a big fan of the AR design like most here are. I REALLY don't like the rear charging handle! A side charging handle is MUCH more natural to me. I think I read yesterday that the new SIG M5 (MCX spear adopted by US military) has a side charging handle as well as the rear charging handle and the only reason the rear charging handle is there is to keep the AR guys happy. I also prefer the option of a folding stock which isn't really compatible with the AR buffer tube (which has also been eliminated on the M5). I am more than ready to move out our current AR era and move beyond the Stone(r) age.

Standard FAL (inch or Metric) doesn't have a reciprocating charging handle... the Israeli modification allows for the charging handle to be used as a forward assist.

 

[sgt127]

One of my old Deputy Chiefs was in the Army. Early Vietnam.

The early M16’s were not known for reliability. They changed the propellant. It was wet. Sticky. Humid. Muddy etc. different world.

He said, at times, half his squad were shooters. The other half, below the sandbags, ripping the guns open. Scrubbing them. Fresh oil, and handing them back up to the shooters.

I think the FA was just one more attempt to build confidence in the soldiers. If it didn’t chamber, you had one more chance, that just took a second, to get the gun running.

It was also the first automatic rifle the didn’t have an exposed bolt handle. The Garand. M1 carbine. M14 all had a handle you could push, slap, manipulate. Military brass wanted that option.

 

[Mk-211]

McNamera and all the wonder boys didn't help with the situation concerning the M16.

To many chefs in the kitchen and none of them knew how to cook.

How many remember these pamphlets?

 

[Jimfern]

McNamera and all the wonder boys didn't help with the situation concerning the M16.

To many chefs in the kitchen and none of them knew how to cook.

How many remember these pamphlets?

View attachment 1177821
View attachment 1177822

When I was in business school we went through a Harvard Business Case on the AR-15 development. It's a very interesting read on the downfalls of group think.

 

[drobs]

One of my old Deputy Chiefs was in the Army. Early Vietnam.

The early M16’s were not known for reliability. They changed the propellant. It was wet. Sticky. Humid. Muddy etc. different world.

He said, at times, half his squad were shooters. The other half, below the sandbags, ripping the guns open. Scrubbing them. Fresh oil, and handing them back up to the shooters.

I think the FA was just one more attempt to build confidence in the soldiers. If it didn’t chamber, you had one more chance, that just took a second, to get the gun running.

It was also the first automatic rifle the didn’t have an exposed bolt handle. The Garand. M1 carbine. M14 all had a handle you could push, slap, manipulate. Military brass wanted that option.

Another way to get the bolt to fully close on a M16 & HK 91 style rifle is to bang the buttstock of the rifle on the ground.
That doesn't work so hot when you are hugging the ground for cover.

 

[12Bravo20]

Another way to get the bolt to fully close on a M16 & HK 91 style rifle is to bang the buttstock of the rifle on the ground.
That doesn't work so hot when you are hugging the ground for cover.

Nor does that work so well with collapsible stocks.

 

[benEzra]

The biggest advantage of a forward assist on a civilian AR is in my opinion the ease of doing a press check like you would with a handgun. Yes, you can push the bolt forward with your thumb on the surface of the bolt instead to make sure it’s reseated, but that can be an oily, carbon-saturated mess at times.

A Mini-14, AK, Garand, M1 carbine, etc. are easy to press-check and reseat the bolt without getting your hands dirty, and a forward assist gives you the same capability on an AR.

 

[ExtremeSquared]

As a counterpoint to "in combat" use, my non-CONUS support unit saw a minimum of combat which required returning fire, based on multiple deployments.
I believe it was due to this fact that our Bn's armories collected lemon M16A2s and had no apparent path for remediation. Mine and others required regular FA usage regardless of clean/lube state.
I noticed some pretty miserable weapons enter theater. The combat units we were attached to had working M4s and M16s.
Same was true of the M9s.
There were zero armorers-by-mos below battalion level.

 

[chicharrones]

Stoner didn't like it but that's not the first time that engineers and end users disagreed on something.

Indeed.

 

[d2wing]

You don't need forward assist, spare tires, backup plans, spare ammo. parachutes or to check your tires air pressure. Some folks think different than others. I learned to slap the bottom my magazines and press the FA in the Army. I don't even think about it. I do it on my 7400 too. Just me I guess.