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Four 380's

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Tallball, Aug 3, 2015.

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  1. Tallball

    Tallball Member

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    Kbob - That Star Model S sounds like an excellent pistol! It has moved up high on my list of "pistols to get one day soon". :)

    I wasn't clear at all on the cc thing. There are three handguns I use for cc. Two of them are snubbies. The other is the KT. The Makarov is an excellent shooter, but bigger and heavier than I prefer to carry.
     
  2. JR47

    JR47 Member

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    About the "double-action trigger being safer, and easier to shoot". Maybe for a small group. Teaching shooters, it's readily apparent that SA guns tend to be more accurate in most hands. There's also a dichotomy in this. Today's "double-action" pistols no longer have that revolver-like 'long trigger pull", nor do they have the 9-14 pound trigger weight. Instead, their length of pull rivals the SA guns, and weight of pull does, as well. All without a safety. If you have an older gun, those features MAY be present.

    I would also comment that Makarovs chambered in .380 haven't been imported since the ban on Russian guns and ammunition. Parts are already drying up, and parts dedicated to the .380 models were never in abundance.

    Many of the high capacity .380's, like the CZ83, the Beretta 84, the Taurus PT58, and their brothers, were designed to be carried holstered OWB/IWB by plainclothes Police, or as off-duty guns (as issued by the Indiana State Police, for example). Many are relics of times when there were NO mini-9s. The idea was, if you can't have more power, have lots of less power. You can stuff a LOT of .380s into an "off-duty" gun that way.

    There are rubber grips available for the Colt Gov't Model .380, the Beretta Model 84, the various Sigs, and even the Makarov (Pearce). Many of these grips offer a reduction in felt recoil without adding too much bulk, On the Beretta, as it was a used gun, replace the recoil spring, and try again.

    We have become enamored of mini guns in ever more powerful calibers. Trouble is, many people aren't going to suffer using them in practice, so aren't ever able to place shots effectively. No matter what you shoot, it has to hit where it's aimed to work.

    As for the Bad Guys, not all of them are hyped up on drugs. Many have preyed on the public for years, using it as a form of income. To them, getting shot is dangerous. Never mind the kill-shot, a wounding requiring medical attention is just as dangerous, as it involves the Police. There ARE doctors that will "fix you up, no questions asked", but the usual low-life isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, and talks too much. The Police pick up the Doc, and he flips, letting them know who comes in , and for what. In return, he testifies, and enters Witness Protection. The people he treated get free medical care for years, and orange jump-suits for all occasions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  3. amd6547

    amd6547 Member

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    I have other, more powerful handguns, and even my favorite Glock 26...but I often keep my Beretta 84F handy at home or for carry. I just like it.
    Besides, 14 rounds of hydra shok or XTP will get me to the shotgun.
     
  4. kBob

    kBob Member

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    TomADC,

    I am confused. Do you have the Browning or the Beretta? Though designed as a joint effort, they are not the same, the main difference being the safety which is slide mounted on the BDA and Frame mounted on the Beretta.

    I thought it odd at the time that Browning went with the slide mounted safety like on the Beretta M92 series and Beretta went with the old browning stand by of the frame mounted thumb safety. Weird.

    I guess FIE missed the chance to import a Tanfoglia clone of them featuring both safeties like they did with some models of the TZ-75. That is of course a joke....well so was the TZ 75 with both safeties come to think of it, but they did sell them.

    I will say that despite my love of the old Star S that if tomorrow was "kBob, we have to move to some central American Country where civilians can only have .380 and down" then a Beretta 84 would be looking VERY nice.

    -kBob
     
  5. TomADC

    TomADC Member

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    kBob the Browning BDA I should have said similar but it does say Made in Italy :)
     
  6. golden

    golden Member

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    Are you sure they are double action

    JR47

    The light, short triggers that you are describing sound more like the "safe action" trigger used by GLOCK and others.

    I will not use a 1911 style for self defense because I do not want a safety! It may sound strange, but my old agency forbid safeties. They would only allow decockers and at that time, that meant GLOCK without a manual safety of any kind and the H&K, SIG and WALTHER which had decockers.

    I agree with their logic. In a crisis, simple is better. No safety to disengage or engage is safer and the way to go.

    If others want one, fine, but not me.

    Jim
     
  7. geologist

    geologist Member

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    In the centre, a DA blowback Astra Constable.

    DSCN2545_zps2latsbo5.jpg
     
  8. hemiram

    hemiram Member

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    My pick of all these is the Beretta 84. I have two of them now, and IMHO, the 84 is the best .380 ever made, with the Browning BDA 380 a close second. The Colt I didn't like at all. The Astra Constable or A-60 is a nice gun too, better than the PPK and it's many near clones I tried over the years.
     
  9. JR47

    JR47 Member

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    golden, not only the "safe action", but most striker-fired guns today have the same issue. I have a Ruger LC9s that has a very short take-up, and a five pound pull. Several other striker-fired guns, billed as DA, like Glock says that their guns are, are similar.

    What you decide to do about safeties is your business. It's just funny that, after a century of safeties on guns, some have suddenly decided to dislike them. Yet, we also have more and more ADs and NDs than ever before with the guns without mechanical safeties. Look at the M&P in several jurisdictions and the issue of NDs.

    Personally, I could care less if one hates a mechanical safety. As long as you shoot yourself, nobody really minds.

    It's just that we still hear that old myth of the "long, double-action pull" being a revolver-like safety. Actually, modern striker-fired guns are now more like SA guns in trigger work, without, in many cases, the SA gun's safety feature.

    Like I said, though, it's a matter of what you like.
     
  10. golden

    golden Member

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    Safeties only work if you use them

    JR47,

    The problem with safeties is that they do not overcome, lack of experience, poor training or in some cases, stupidity!

    I have read of the recent accidental discharges with the GLOCK and M&P and remember when the GLOCK first hit the market and people who kept their fingers on the trigger as they shoved the gun into their holster would have an AD. Well, it is not really a matter of having a safety. If you keep you finger on the trigger, the gun will go off sooner or later whether you have a safety or not.
    If your training is so poor that you have not been trained to keep your finger off the trigger, it is unlikely, you were trained to put the safety on. An AD is just going to happen because you are also not putting the safety on in most cases.

    Way back when revolvers were still the police gun of choice, they used to make holsters with opening so that you could put your trigger finger on the trigger while the gun was still in the holster. No one makes them that way anymore as far as I know.
    However, if the mentality behind that design is alive and well with police who are no longer coming from the gun culture, then you can expect problems that the safety will not fix, since many of these people will not even know what it is, much less how to use it.

    When I started, the rule was to start squeezing the trigger after you cleared the holster, so that you could get off a quick shot as the gun came up. We got past that as a part of training, but I still see it being used.

    My rule is, DO NOT TOUCH THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE GOING TO SHOOT.

    So far, after 4 decades, I have managed to not shoot myself, so I think it works.

    Jim
     
  11. JR47

    JR47 Member

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    There seem to be a lot of ADs/NDs using these "safe" guns when holstering without having a finger on the trigger. Too many times the article of clothing that is the cover garment gets trapped, or the holster's design allows the gun to fire, as well. There's also a growing body of evidence that shows the finger on the trigger of even well-trained operators when under stress.

    I agree that safeties can only be as effective as the operator. What I disagree with is the contention that anyone can be trained to keep their fingers off the trigger, and to use specific procedures to holster their weapon, but, somehow, cannot be trained to use a mechanical safety properly.

    The military teaches it's rifle users to apply the safety whenever the gun comes off the shoulder. Certainly, if our war-fighters can be trusted to use safeties in battle, we should be able to learn the same thing with a pistol.

    What astounds me is the shrill "I won't have a mechanical safety on a pistol I own". Pretty feeble thinking when you consider that, if YOU don't apply the safety, nobody will sneak up and do it for you. If you don't like it, don't use it.

    Also, this continuing mantra of "more training" might just as well be an excuse, and not a solution. There will be a certain number of people who will obtain passing grades after a given amount of training. As it's no longer PC to fail anyone, there are ,accordingly, going to be a certain number of people, at any lever, who barely pass the testing. They get dragged along with the actual competent people.

    There are always more than one way to skin a cat. However, until we are going to fit each and every gun carrier with a custom weapon, things like grip size, control locations, weight, and bulk are going to make "training" a joke. After a while, we simply call for "more training" by rote. What we're actually saying is "gun doesn't fit you? Get more training." "Trigger reach too far? Get more training". "Gun too bulky for you to safely manipulate? Get more training".

    Oddly, we also hear the "don't like a safety? Well you can't be trained to use one, anyway."
     
  12. Zendude
    • Contributing Member

    Zendude Contributing Member

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    The safety/no safety might just be a generational thing. If I grew up shooting Glocks, then I would be more aware of the light trigger and no safety. But being raised on 1911s and revolvers, I just don't trust myself with a Glock.
     
  13. KSDeputy

    KSDeputy Member

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    I own a Walther PPK, PPK/S & BERSA Thunder satin nickel in .380. They are all good DA/SA backup pistols. I carry a DA/SA CS 45.
     
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