Fredericksburg VA are you on the list?

[The Reaper]

Your local paper is doing the criminals a public service.

http://fredericksburg.com/News/weaponspermits

 

[AZTOY]

***


Concealed weapons permits

The first page shows all concealed weapons permits we have on record. The names are kept as public records in area Circuit Court clerks’ offices. Then you may use the provided tools to narrow your search.
Or, use the Keyword Search. Type in any parts of what you are looking for within the Description field. Start with one or two words or parts of words. Then add more to further narrow the search.


Is this legal?

 

[m.i.sanders]

I wonder what other states do this?? I can't believe that they'd publish this on the net.

 

[The Reaper]

To clarify, this is a local newspaper, not the county offices. The newspaper has taken it upon itself to do this listing since the info is part of the public record.

:banghead:

 

[cuchulainn]

People should get the names of all the editors and other employees of this newspaper and publish has much publically-available information as possible about them -- like what those guys did to Poindexter.

 

[Gray Peterson]

Someone better be seeing this in the VA Legislature and doing something about it quick.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I hate it, but it would probably be very tough to do anything about it.

Other states have tried to outlaw the posting of crime reports, divorce records, real estate records, etc., by newspapers, and those strictures have uniformly been struck down.

Very interesting juxtaposition between the 1st and 2nd Amendments...

 

[Gray Peterson]

I'm not talking about banning posting. I'm talking about making the records private.

What the newspaper basically did was make every carry permit holder's home a target for criminals.

 

[The Reaper]

Since you apply for a CHP through your local court and court records are public there won't be much help there.

However, I'm wondering if contacting the paper's advertisers and telling the advertiser that you will not buy from them etc. since they support this paper and why they shouldn't support this paper. Also let the advertiser know you will inform all your friends not to support them unless they stop supporting this paper.

Also if it is a paid subscription paper get people to cancel and tell the paper why.

There are 1037 people on the published list. They each must have a friend or two. Fredericksburg isn't that big is it?

 

[cookhj]

damn, that looks like one permit for everyone in dead fred (fredericksburg). posing that is totally unnecessary.

 

[Zak Smith]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34683

Here's what I wrote to my paper when they did this. They published it almost verbatim...

http://www.demigod.org/~zak/documents/real-life/coloradoan-2-20-2000/html

Sent to the editor Feb. 22, 2000
Published Feb. 28, 2000
Bad Idea

Publishing a list of Larimer County concealed handgun permit holders was not only an invasion of privacy, but also irresponsible, undermining the benefit of concealed-carry permits, and putting both permit holders and the rest of the population at increased risk. Here's why:

One of the main advantages concealed carry permits is that the entire population enjoys a reduced violent crime rate if only a minute fraction, even 1/2%, of the population carries.

This communal benefit is only possible because a criminal does not know who is armed and who is not. Unfortunately, with a published list, this anonymity is removed, and an enterprising criminal now has a de-facto list of those not armed, namely, those not on the list.

Mr. Greiling alluded to another issue: increased danger to permit holders whose names were published. Of course, we understand that a criminal would be foolish to single one of us out for a personal, violent attack, however, many permit holders own more than one gun, and since guns aren't cheap ($400 to $700 is common), these permit holders are probably financially successful. Now your list becomes a veritable directory for criminals: If you wait until we're not home, you can steal firearms and other valuables from us. Why don't you just publish a map to my house?

In an apparent effort to stereotype permit holders, you mention that only 10% are women. If I were a woman, I would now be scared: any potential rapist now knows that there is a much lower chance that I am armed.

The recurrent theme of your articles, and Cherie Trine's quotes, is one of fear, that you "would want to know if a neighbor or co-worker is armed." I honestly don't know if you keep bringing this up out of a genuine misunderstanding or in an effort to portray a negative image of permit holders, and gun owners in general.

This fear is not grounded in reality. To obtain a concealed-carry permit, a person must pass both Colorado (CBI) and Federal (FBI) background checks, have no history of substance or alcohol abuse, no history of domestic violence, no history of mental problems, and no criminal record.

In short, just about the worst thing a person can do and still obtain a concealed-carry permit is drive too fast on the way to work! Concealed-carry permit holders are upstanding, law-abiding, level-headed members of the community.

Federal civil rights legislation forbids discrimination based upon race, creed, color, sex, age, religion, national or ethnic origin, physical or mental disability, and status as a Vietnam-era veteran. Since "gun owner" or "concealed-carry permit holder" is not one of these protected classes, you have opened the door for an employer to fire an employee because she has a carry permit.

Of course, whether or not you are allowed to carry at work is a term of employment -- a carry permit does not allow you to carry on company or private property if the owners don't want you to.

There is obviously more to the debate than "my right to know if my neighbor is armed" vs. "my right to privacy." It is imperative to understand that publishing the concealed-carry permit list can decrease the safety of our community, and endanger its individual members.

Another article, also published on February 20th, was titled, "No penalty for carrying gun on CSU campus." The whole idea of "gun-free" zones is ludicrous. The only effect such laws have is to disarm those legally carrying, and advertise to criminals: "If you want un-armed victims, come here." If a criminal is planning to rob, rape, or kill, he isn't going to care whether or not it's a gun-free zone!

The police have no duty to protect any individual citizen, it's been ruled over and over again in court cases. If a rapist or killer is attacking you, he isn't going to wait for you to dial "911". Each person is ultimately responsible for her own safety. Why are you promoting an anti-self-defense view?

-z

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I'm not talking about banning posting. I'm talking about making the records private."

And, as I noted, a number of states and even individuals have tried this, and as far as I know the newspapers have been victorious all the way.

The only strictures that courts have pretty much kept are those regarding juveniles.

Believe it or not, most states don't even have laws regarding publication of the names of victims of sexual assault. Most newspapers adopt those bans voluntarily.

 

[fastbolt]

The courts have spoken upon this issue ...

During the CCW course we warn all new permit holders that their names may be released upon the request of any press person, under the Freedom of Information Act, desiring to know who has been issued CCW's. While I don't believe we release the street name or number, I believe we're required to release the city of residence.

 

[coati]

I question the agenda of the paper. Does this information, made public, somehow make everyone "safer," like posting registered sex offenders?

The records start at the end of 2001, apparently. There was a big bubble of permits issued in the weeks following 9/11/2001.

 

[mjustice]

Hiding CCW records is a double edged sword.

In New York only the name and address of a licensee is public record. Everything else isn't. While it keeps secret the fact that the jewler carries diamonds on Tuesday and Thursday, it's hide the arbitrary licensing techniques that many licensing officers use. (we'll never get the details of Aerosmith's application(s) unless someone at the NYPD leaks it)

In a state where licenses are not discretionary (all shall-issue states), the records should be sealed unless a court demands otherwise (warrant, supeona, etc.). In may-issue states, the records should be available for those seeking to challenge the system - but those instances could also be covered by actions of the court.

Just my two cents,
MJ

 

[andy28277]

My Response to the managing editor - [email protected]

Mr. Jones,

I'd be curious to know why you would publish the names and addresses of all of these concealed weapon permit holders?

It would seem to me that you are telling criminals who definitely has firearms in the home and who may not. The criminal mind can then say, after reading your paper, "hey, I can case this house, make sure nobody is home, and have a chance at stealing a firearm", or "hey, I now know which houses to avoid. The chances are the other homes don't have firearms and it will make it easier to rape the wife". You are setting people up for violent crime or helping criminals arm themselves based on this list.

I think that you have done an enormous diservice and have given criminals an edge. The great thing about concealed weapon permits is that criminals don't know, until now, who may have a gun on him and it protects all citizens.

I think you have helped out criminals a great deal - and opened your paper up to a tremendous amount of litigation from victims.

Please explain to me why you would do this?

***** You can email the Managing Editor, Ed Jones, at [email protected]

 

[Poodleshooter]

Looks like someone needs to "Poindexter" these guys. I wonder if they would like someone posting their names, addresses, a list of their possessions, and their working hours on a series of flyers distributed in Fredericksburg?
Hey, it's all free speech and "in the public interest"!

 

[Killians97]

link it dead

Looks like the link is now dead. Did they take it down, or had too many hits?
Killians97

 

[andy28277]

CCW Database Taken down!

Great job, everyone. As of 4:12pm EST Fredricksburg.com took down the searchable CCW database on their site due to our pressure.

 

[coati]

Running an archives search for "concealed" and then clicking on "cached" next to the result brings you to the original search page. It doesn't seem to work right now.

That link posted above seems to be busted. Worth watching for awhile.

 

[The Reaper]

Fredericksburg.com has removed the searchable CHP permit holder database from their website. This has been confirmed by the VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League) http://www.vcdl.org

What isn't known at this point, is if the editors will continue to publish the same list in the newspaper.

Thanks to all who wrote to Fredericksburg.com to express their thoughts on this subject.

 

[Drizzt]

Free Lance Star Deletes Public Gun Permit Internet Database
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fredericksburg, Va. -- The Internet version of the Free Lance- Star offered an on-line searchable database of concealed hand gun permit holders issued to persons within a four-county and one city area by the local Circuit Court Judges for a few hours Sunday and Monday.

There was intensive public response throughout Monday to the newspaper.

The newspaper received a firestorm of e-mail and message board postings. In less than 2-days the database was taken off-line by the editor of the on-line publication.

"After discussions here in the Fredericksburg.com office, we've decided there's not a compelling need to have a searchable database of concealed weapons permits available on the site and have removed the searchable database," announced Chris Muldrow, Editor, fredericksburg.com in a message board posting.

Postings to the boards amounted to fewer than 100 between them.

John Frenter posted to Packing.org saying, "Within 48 hours, this collection of info warriors succeeded in the objective of getting the newspaper to retract its policy and remove that list. And you all thought you were just a bunch of pissed-off gun owners.

The FredTalk had over 600 visitors while the "Packing" organization had just under a 1,000 viewers reading about the concealed weapon permit data base launched by the Free Lance Star.

One Packer.org message board poster said he had spoke with State Delegate John J. Welch, III (R-Virginia Beach) to complain about the on-line database of gun permits holders.

The issue is likely to fuel debate about on-line access to public records, and moreover, what is a public record.

Concealed weapon permit applications and approvals are a public record under Virginia law in each of the 121 Circuit Court clerk of court offices over the Commonwealth of Virginia.

The Free Lance Star has printed the names of those authorized by the Circuit Court Judge to carry a concealed hand gun for quite some time but only recently added the on-line database.

Some on-line message board posters, tongue-in-cheek, suggested that a database of homeowners without guns be posted to the Internet.

The Free Lance-Star also provides a searchable database of all divorces granted by the Circuit Courts of Fredericksburg city, Caroline, King George, Stafford, and Spotslyvania Counties north of Richmond, Virginia.

Police reports are also available from Stafford and Spotslyvania Counties and the city of Fredericksburg along with real estate transactions.

http://www.mywisecounty.com/news/010603-1.htm