Friendly Fire Isn't.....

[Jeff White]

Last April an off duty St Louis police officer was shot and killed in the parking lot of a downtown bar. Details have been very sketchy since then. Today the report was released and the officer was apparently killed by friendly fire from the club's bouncer who thought the off duty officer was firing on an innocent subject in the parking lot.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_024ef037-5cd6-5d72-bba5-c82f98f01edf.html

Bouncer shot at St. Louis officer who died outside club

ST. LOUIS • A nightclub bouncer fired on an off-duty St. Louis patrolman after mistaking him for a criminal during a fatal shootout Easter morning, according to information from police and liquor commission records........

The news article tells the story of a well intentioned action that turned out to be tragically wrong because the bouncer (an active duty sergeant in the US Air Force) wasn't aware of what was happening when he sprang into action. His initial perception of what was happening in the parking lot was completely wrong. He took what I am sure was what he thought was the right action and when the echo of the gunshots faded into the early morning hours he found out that two people were dead, one of them being an off duty police officer who was trying to resolve the situation.

Very often things aren't what they appear to be and jumping into a situation you aren't sure about can have terrible consequences. Even if the bouncer gets out of this with an intact military career and no criminal charges being filed he has to live with his actions that morning for the rest of his life.

 

[mopar92]

Hard to armchair quarterback this, sounds like not enough thought went into the situation? Sad for everybody...

 

[RTR_RTR]

Self-defense, not other-defense should be your focus, for good reason. Sad situation

 

[Carl Levitian]

A good reason to mind ones own business.

Keep in mind also, the police have undercover cops doing all kinds of investigations. It would be heck to see what you think is a long haired bearded low life taking down a person, you butt in, and find out the guy you just pulled a gun on is an undercover cop. You probably won't get off on that one.

I'm all for staying well back out of it, observe and call the cops on the cell phone. That's it.

Carl.

 

[rocky branch]

That's the scay side of CCW.
A lot of guys are just itching for an excuse to plug somebody.
You can read it between thelines in many posts.
Not a majority, by any means, just an observation.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Carl Levitian: It would be heck to see what you think is a long haired bearded low life taking down a person, you butt in, and find out the guy you just pulled a gun on is an undercover cop. You probably won't get off on that one.

It would be bad enough even if no one ended up getting shot.

And here's another worrisome pssibility. In at least one state, the courts have ruled that, if a citizen intervenes to defend someone who happens to have been trying to escape after having committed a crime, the intervening citizen is guilty of aiding and abetting a criminal even if he or she had honestly believed that he or she had been defending an innocent third party.

There are all kinds of reasons to avoid getting involved in someone else's altercation.

 

[Panzercat]

Self-defense, not other-defense should be your focus, for good reason. Sad situation

Problem is 'other defense' is his job. The well intentioned shooter was club protection. He gets paid to keep things orderly, bust up fights, etc. I'm not about to armchair quarterback, but that complicates the situation by several magnitudes. You could all but cast a LEO pulling after hours church duty in the same situation.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

bouncer works inside club not outside

 

[RTR_RTR]

bouncer works inside club not outside

This. I agree though, that if the situation had unraveled within the club, which is entirely possible, it would be a different situation.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

This thread needs to be a sticky. VERY important consideration for everyone who carries-

 

[mopar92]

Sticky? I disagree. I don't think you can teach instinct and judgement. There were two grown ups in my ccw class that would rehearse scenarios and what they would do... I finally just told the guy, " man, you do know that for you to use that weapon, it is the last resort you have to saving a life". " you talking about covering fire for your buddy who sneaks in and gets the BG.... You might reconsider your legal obligations first"... They were insistent that they were going to blast any BG's out there... Sheesh

 

[Strykervet]

A good reason to mind ones own business.

Keep in mind also, the police have undercover cops doing all kinds of investigations. It would be heck to see what you think is a long haired bearded low life taking down a person, you butt in, and find out the guy you just pulled a gun on is an undercover cop. You probably won't get off on that one.

I'm all for staying well back out of it, observe and call the cops on the cell phone. That's it.

Carl.

I saw this exact scenario unfold in front of me. Something was going on in the street, hard to tell, and then two bummy looking guys start beating this other guy. A car stops and a guy jumps out and starts beating one of them and trying to break it up. They immediately turn on him, more undercover cops come out of the woodwork and try to stop the car as he jumped in and took off, one of them banging on the roof.

Then the guy they were beating, who was so devious he had to be beaten by two undercover cops in broad daylight with backup all around, cops that could not under any circumstances identify themselves to bystanders or the guy they were beating, just ran off unimpeded. The pack found a new target. Keystone cops, every single one of them.

First they fumbled by not identifying themselves AS they got into it. They DID look like criminals. But that is the point, no? To look like the criminal element? If so, then the occasional unintended casualty will be the end result. If that is too high a price to pay, wear a uniform. Good guys shouldn't wear black unless they don't mind being mistaken for the bad guy.

Funny thing is, I was on my way over to help the man too. The guys beating him weren't responding to people yelling "STOP!", they weren't identifying themselves, and their buddies were just watching until a citizen stepped in. It was, to anyone who saw it, a felony in progress.

All they had to do was show their badges and I bet the guy who stopped would have backed down, and they wouldn't have lost their quarry. But like clockwork, our cops here turned on the citizen trying to do the right thing like a pack of rabid dogs and lost it all.

Pretty funny now that I think of it. I can't imagine what the guy they were trying to catch did, but it must not have been that important considering how it unfolded.

 

[Strykervet]

Sticky? I disagree. I don't think you can teach instinct and judgement. There were two grown ups in my ccw class that would rehearse scenarios and what they would do... I finally just told the guy, " man, you do know that for you to use that weapon, it is the last resort you have to saving a life". " you talking about covering fire for your buddy who sneaks in and gets the BG.... You might reconsider your legal obligations first"... They were insistent that they were going to blast any BG's out there... Sheesh

I have heard of these CCW classes. Glad I don't have to deal with that here. Most of the ones I have heard about are taught by hotheads and armchair generals, but I bet the "good" ones are just plain boring so nobody ever mentions those.

On top of what you said, I've heard of them suggesting to carry the biggest you can, and that he preferred to carry a .500 S&W. Perhaps it was on here.

Carrying the weapon and being somewhat knowledgeable about your state's laws IS preparing.

 

[mopar92]

Actually the guys were swat or retired police. Very good guys, and I learned a thing or two ... I was just going through the motions. There was this goober that brought his AE 50 . Crazy money he spent, as we shot 400 rounds. It was a ccw class on steroids, but still had some crazy guys. The most unsafe/cocky guy there was an American Air pilot who was chosen for cockpit carry. He was waiving around some HK that the instructors just went gagga over. The guy would constantly load 13 rounds or so when we were strictly given the 10 shot only command. He put a round through my target too, that's when I asked if my wife and I could go to the opposite end. It came out later through an instructor that I stayed in touch with that he discharged that pistol at the gate in Chicago! Put a hole in that 757. Go figure...

 

[Panzercat]

bouncer works inside club not outside

Really? That's your justification? Because crap going down in the club parking lot isn't going to concern the club at all, right? They're not going to deploy security to break said disturbance on their property?

Come on, I know you're looking for an easy rebuttal, but at least try to put some thought into it.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

my rationale is that i've worked in that biz and our rules were to the door only. bouncer is not the police.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

Sticky? I disagree. I don't think you can teach instinct and judgement.

yeah, but it does not hurt to give users something to think about

 

[JustinJ]

The link is no longer up but i found the same story. The one i read however gave the impression that the officer was engaged in a gun fight with fire going both ways so what i would like to know is how the bouncer decided who to fire at. It is possible that he did not witness the suspect shooting though.

I do however completely disagree with the "mind your own business comments". So if a person is being beaten, mugged or even raped nobody else would use their weapon to intervene and defend the victim? Aren't we all responsible to some degree for ensuring our communities are safe places? Obviously a person should assess the situation before acting but i'd have a hard time living with myself knowing i allowed an innocent person to be killed when i could have prevented it.

 

[Kleanbore]

So if a person is being beaten, mugged or even raped nobody else would use their weapon to intervene and defend the victim?

Depends upon two things: (1) is it necessary to use the weapon to "defend" someone else, and (2) does one actually know that the person is really a victim?

Aren't we all responsible to some degree for ensuring our communities are safe places?

To some degree, yes, but there's no place in the country in which a citizen is indemnified against liability for intervening to defend a third person.

Obviously a person should assess the situation before acting but i'd have a hard time living with myself knowing i allowed an innocent person to be killed when i could have prevented it.

Sure, but I wouldn't like it at all if I had to defend myself against criminal and/or civil charges at my own expense, and I'd like it a whole lot less less if my defense were unsuccessful.

Nor would I like being mistaken for a violent criminal actor and shot by someone who felt that he have a hard time living with himself if he allowed an innocent person to be killed when he could have prevented it.

Even police officers do not like the idea of intervening in a domestic violence situation. They arrive to resolve one situation, and the testimony of the whole family describes the situation as something else and blames the officers.

 

[BRE346]

This is the terrible dilemma that we law-abiding armed citizens face. And there isn't time to mull it over when the action is underway.
I'll shoot to save myself.
I'll shoot to save any of my famly.
I'll shoot to save a known neighbor.
I'll shoot to save a uniformed cop.
The rest I'll think about.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

one story says the bouncer knew the cop and that does add an element to the story. can't claim he didn't know it was a cop assuming he knew who he was firing on. and i also wonder about club policy/practice about the door help drinking. in many cases where a bouncer got gigged they had a couple of "shift drinks"

 

[JustinJ]

"Depends upon two things: (1) is it necessary to use the weapon to "defend" someone else, and (2) does one actually know that the person is really a victim? "

Of course but that is where assessment comes in. But taking an attitude of "i'll just mind my own business" is wrong in my book and i don't just mean for intervening with a CC weapon. If a loved one of mine were being assaulted or mugged i'd hope somebody else would step in on their behalf. Nobody should like the idea of intervening in a violent crime but it's still the right thing to do.

One is often not indemnified for defending themself either.