Frugal, Yet Accurate -- Scope Advice

Status
Not open for further replies.
ok..... took the 308 with the centerpoint scope to the range again..... I'm now up to 150 rounds and this centerpoint scope is still holding zero and taking the pounding....

This weekend I put another centerpoint scope on my Saiga 308..... I only got to fire 20 rounds because it started raining, but so far so good....

I will let you guys know how they hold up..... I now have four of these centerpoint scopes.... 1 on a 17HMR, one on a 223, and two on 308's..... all four together cost less than one namebrand scope such as leupold......they may not have the light gathering ability of the expensive scopes, but thats all right by me as I mostly shoot paper in broad daylight....
 
I vote for the Nikon Monarch. They are pretty decent quality for the money. I keep hearing a lot of good things about Vortex too. Seems that a lot of people out there think they are pretty decent for budget priced optics. I can vouch for the monarch but I've never used anything made by Vortex. I might give them a try sometime though...especially as the fun $ gets tighter.
 
The vortex vipers will not cost you any less money than the monarchs and I believe they are made by the same manufacturer as the monarchs. They are pretty similar to the monarchs and 4200's as far as features go and are good scopes. The other lower level models are the normal chinese or whatever cheapo scopes.
 
I do have a couple Nikon Monarchs and really like them... I also have several other high end scopes..... what I'm doing here is trying to put the Centerpoint scopes that Walmart sells for $69.95 thru real life shooting tests...... for target shooting, so far, they have been worth every penny saved..... i'm going to keep shooting them on the 2 different .308's to see if they can take the long term punishment of a high powered cartridge.
 
My Centerpiont 4-16x44mm Wal Mart scope has now been on my 30-06 Wally World "Budget Mall Ninja Tactical Boltie" for over a year now. I posted the original range report here in 2007. It will still shoot 3/4" 100yrd and 1.5" 200yrd groups with inexpensive ammo and will do slightly better with handloads. The original assessment of the rifle and SCOPE hasn't changed.
 
I've been mildly impressed with the TruGlo red dot scopes so when I saw they had optical scopes at the local gunshop I looked them over. I wanted a decent scope for longer range shots but since I spent my wad on the rifle I didn't have enough for optics (The same old song- too much rifle, not enough scope- I know, it's backwards but got the good deal on the gun).

I looked at the Simmons scopes- lightweight, focus wasn't that great and clarity at max zoom wasn't that great either. The Nikons weren't bad, and the Bushnell Elites.
Then I saw they had the TruGlo scopes- and they were a good, solid scope, nitrogen purged & filled, fog proof, shockproof, lifetime warranty, felt reasonably heavy in my hand, etc.

Thought about it, then happened upon a TruGlo 6-24x44 Target/Varmint with 1/8 MOA target turrets (crosshair, but they make a mildot scope too) brand new in box on eBay. Under $100 shipped, and it was NIB. Put it in a set of Leupold rings on a Leupold bridge-mount on my Remington 700 Police Sharpshooter in .308.

Zeroed well, holds zero, was getting dime sized groups at 100 yards with my bulk FAL reloads. Optics are clear, even at max magnification. Lots of light. I was pleasantly surprised and so far it is taking the pounding of .308 just fine.
I believe these are under $200 new and I have to say I would buy another one.
 
After today's range trip, I'm up to 200 rounds of .308 on the PBR XP with the centerpoint scope..... have not had to make any adjustments since sighting in the first day.....still taking the pounding well..... got 50 rounds now in Saiga 308 with a centerpoint scope...... holding up just as well....

my thanks to jpwilly and saturno for mentioning these scopes..... I think they can not be beat for the price. I have four all performing very well.....all four together only costing $280.....
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty impressed with my Swift 6-18 so far. It's a good scope for what it cost ($224). Optics are nice and clear.

Here's the disclaimer: I have not done much clicking back and forth with the adjustments. So far I've only made it out to the 100 meter range, but once I get to the 300 I guess I'll know.

Also, I have it mounted on a .223, and a heavy one at that. I have no idea if it would hold up to a heavy recoiling rifle.
 
Fella's;

I mean no disrespect to Flash and his continuing test. However, the .308 does not, repeat not, have punishing recoil. In reality, it's pretty mild as far these things go. For a person who's only previously experienced .223 AR platform recoil, yes I suppose the .308 might seem to be "punishment" or "pounding". In fact it's not, it's strictly a pedestrian number in the ft. lbs. of recoil impulse.

There are millions of people who've sent tens of millions of rounds out the barrel of various guns over hundreds of years that are in exactly the same ballpark as the .308 in an average 9 lb. gun.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that there's a bargain scope that you're happy with that's performing in your guns. It's just that you're not subjecting them to some wicked difficult test.

900F
 
CB900F... no offense or disrespect taken.....I'm well aware the recoil of the 308 is not the most punishing round. I have several more powerful guns. I know what recoil can be.....I only ask that you keep in mind the purpose of my testing....the purpose is to see if a scope that is priced the same as scopes for air rifles can take the recoil of the average rifle cartridges for an extended period.... most shooters use rifles along the same recoil levels of the .308, 30-06, etc..... the really high powered cartridges are not mainstream, at least not in my world, and not the purpose of my testing...... I am looking at normal usage for budget minded shooters..... This scope sells for $69.95 and is doing what I would expect for your average hunting scope....
 
Just to throw an old name back into the ring... a year or two ago I bought, based on several online recommendations, the Tasco 2.5-10x mildot varmint/target scope to mount on an old .222 rifle. Well, that tasco has now been on a bunch of highpower rifles including a very light 7mm magnum that kicked hard enough to screw up the zero on the fixed-power scope it was originally equipped with. It has worked fine throughout. Paralax adjustable, target turrets, can focus down to <10 yards (nice for some things), and it comes with see-through lens caps.

Biggest downside is that it is only mildot at 10x (the reticle doesn't zoom) but 10x is usable. Don't get me wrong, next to a high end scope this is pretty blah... but it's a good value and I'm going to keep using it.

I paid less than $60 but the prices have gone up.
 
Buy the absolute best scope you can. You will never regret buying a nice scope but I have found I often regret not getting a nice enough scope. I would spend as much as you can possibly stomach on the scope, base, and rings. The idea of buy once, cry once is one I have become a believer in.
 
+1 on the rings and bases.

However... scopes are innately fragile things and modern rifles often omit the iron sights... so if you really want your rifle to work you need a second scope available.

It may or may not make sense to buy two $600 scopes. A $600 primary and a $100 floating spare saves you $500 and that's nothing to sneeze on. ;)

Likewise, having a $100 scope (or my $60 tasco) allows you to check the function and accuracy of new rifles without popping $500 for a scope on what might be a POS rifle.

So... if you are just starting out there is NOTHING wrong with getting a good cheap scope. It will be taken off and put in a drawer, yes, but it's better to have a $50 scope in a drawer than a $500 scope (well, unless $500 is chump change to you....in that case carry on!) or none at all.
 
Busnell Elite 3200 10x40 w/Mildots. You can pick them up on Ebay... do a microsoft live search... get a discount. And wait till you get an Ebay 10% coupon in your inbox. I got mine for $143.89 shipped for free.

Perfect scope for a FN PBR XP .308.
 
This one's really easy...
GET THE BEST SCOPE YOU CAN AFFORD!!!

Copy that?

The glass on top of the rifle is every bit as important as the rifle itself. People seem to forget this, as I can't tell you how many times I've seen a $1000 rifle wearing a $50 scope. The bottom line is that, where optics are concerned, you get what you pay for. Now, you don't have to spend $2K to get an acceptable scope, but to be blunt, anything under $100 isn't fit to be on a centerfire rifle, let alone a target/"tactical" rifle meant for precision shooting.

The fact is that the opposite of the above is better if you're on a tight budget. A $400 Savage with Accu-trigger will shoot inside 1 MOA easy once you find fodder that it likes. My Savage .30-06 with the cheap Winchester 150gr Power Points shoots 3/4 MOA all day long. That being said, if the glass sucks, the rifle sucks, and there isn't a darn thing you can do to remedy the crappy $100 scope other than throw it away and get a new one. Get a budget rifle, and then save and scrounge up every penny you can to but decent glass on it. Decent starts at about $250 and goes up from there. As for the rifle, you can always take steps to accurize it later as you can afford it (i.e. trigger job, pillar and/or glass bed, blueprint, etc...)

Why? Because you're desiring to get into precision shooting. To shoot precisely you need a precision instrument to aim with. Riflescopes are complicated pieces of equipment with lots of little parts that, to be worth a hoot, must be built to very precise tolerances, and they must be strong enough to tolerate a lot of punishment from handling and recoil. The mechanisms must be tightly constructed, and the adjustments must be precise and repeatable. Just holding a zero isn't quite good enough. On a long range/tactical/varmint/target rig you're probably going to want to adjust your dope for wind and range. I've had a dozen cheapy scopes that would hold a zero fine if you sighted them in and left them alone. But if you moved the turrets to adjust the zero, strange and erratic results often occured, sometimes taking several shots to "settle" the scope. Not good. For your application, you want turrets that say what they mean, and mean what they say. 1/4 MOA/click = 1/4 MOA, EVERY TIME.

Next time you have your $60 China special out to the range, try this one. Zero the scope and shoot a 5 shot group. Then take both turrets and run them through the entire range of adjustment. Then do it again for good measure. Now return the turrets to the previously established zero and shoot another group. If you're lucky, you'll be within a few inches. If you have a real quality scope target/tactical scope, you'll be within a few mm.

So my suggestion is to save up and look for a fixed power mil-dot scope (there are plenty out there these days with this whole tacticool craze) starting about $150, or a variable power starting about $200. Stick with brand name scopes. You can find Nikon scopes (the Buckmaster line is good, the Monarchs are very good) that are factory refurbished for under $300. The Bushnell Elite 3200 series are decent scopes that cost around the $200 mark. There are others as well. I used to do what you're planning. Spend 90% of my budget on the rifle, and less that 10% on the optics. A better ratio is starts at about 60/40 rifle/scope. But after having realized just how important good glass is, I've changed my thinking and budget about half for the optics. My latest aquisition was a Remington 700 LSS Limited, which I got a great deal on the internet for $759. It wears a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x50mm mil-dot that I also got a great deal on at $735. It's an awesome setup, and the scope is the best part. You don't necessarily have to spend that much to get a decent scope to get started, but it doesn't hurt.

Check out this dealer. He's the guy I bought my Zeiss from, and he's got some of the best prices you're ever going to find, and he's a heck of a nice guy to deal with.

http://www.elkhuntersports.com/

He's got a Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40mm mil-dot for $269, which is a good price for a good scope. He doesn't carry a big selection, but if you call him I'd bet he could get what you're looking for for a good price. His name is Mark Shannon.

In summary; spend wisely now, or spend twice later.

Mike
 
Now that we've got that out of the way, tell us why you think spending twice isn't spending wisely.

One of anything is foolish.

A $$$$ scope in a drawer is foolish.

Copy?
 
Why would you put an expensive scope in a drawer? If you've got some expensive scopes you just can't find anything to do with, you can send them to me and I'll put them to good use. ;)

I think you've missed my point entirely. :banghead:

To clarify, if you buy a POS scope for $100, and it turns out to be a POS (why should you expect more?), that is frustrating at best and unusable at worst, what do you do? Well, sooner or later you'll either wind up buying another like it, or if you learned your lesson, you'll buy the quality scope you should have bought in the first place. Either way you're out $100 you could have saved toward the better scope the first time around. I've personally experienced all of the following from these wonderful <$100 China specials; not holding zero, inaccurate or erratic turret adjustments, adjustments not repeatable, something shakes loose and the reticle starts to rotate, a turret stops working, the AO comes off in my hand, the scope leaks like a sieve and the scope fogs on the inside. All wonderful examples of the "value" you get from cheap scopes. As for that "warrantee"... if they honor it at all, what kind of service do you expect to get?

So again, you can spend the money wisely now, or spend it twice later...

Mike
 
I got your point. I disagree with you.

Cheap scopes are not automatically POS scopes. That's sucker thinking. The problem with cheap is that they are hit or miss and you've got to check them out. Guess what, you have to check out ANY scope you get. Maybe the cheap scope will need to be exchanged...if so, get it over with early.

Optics are not magic. There are some basic rules and believe it or not the Chinese are very eager to make good optics. It's an industry with military/national defense impact they want to master. They don't always get it... but that's mass production for you. Quality Assurance is now the job of the consumer...which is why you mount the optic on a rifle and make sure you got what you paid for. What are you testing? Things like maintaining zero throughout the zoom range and during shooting, being reasonably clear at max/min zoom, and a lack of obvious physical defects. Repeatability of zero isn't that important. Check one time and you are good to go -- it ain't going to die in a drawer. Of course that "check" can be the first 10+ range trips with your new rifle while you are saving up for the ideal scope... or one trip to the range if that's all you need.

When first setting up a rifle you should start with a known scope. There is one thing worse than buying a $60 scope and having to exchange it once or twice to get one that works well: buying a shiny new rifle and a $600+ scope only to find the setup is grouping 8" at 50 yards and you don't know whether it's the rifle, scope, or what. If you had mounted your known scope (that has already helped you realize MOA accuracy on another rifle) first you'd be positive it was the rifle. You don't spend the money on a scope for that rifle until you know it's ready for good optics. That's good troubleshooting and sound money management.

If you don't yet have a known scope sitting in a drawer, get one. If you can afford to do that with a $600 or $200 scope, great for you, but for most of us it makes more sense to use a cheaper scope...one in the $100 range...which gets us right back to where I started: Get a cheap scope, use it for a while, then upgrade.

My cheap "drawer" scope is the tasco I mentioned before. It passes all the tests (and is surprisingly good when it comes to adjustment repeatability) and has stood up to some stout recoil. I've mounted it on, and taken it off of, several rifles and it has always done what I wanted. I'm very glad I have it even though it isn't the scope I would choose to use day in and day out.

It would be a foolish waste of money not to start out with a cheap scope.
 
You have to be kidding. I went with those cheap scopes and if you do more than set them and let them be, they go back to the factory for one reason or another. $20 shipping there and back gets old on scopes that never track correctly. Trying the tactical game is fun but it REQUIRES good glass. There is no point tossing bargain basement glass on a rifle meant for multiple range precision. The tactical game is intense from the start and is a lot of wear and tear on a scope. You say repeatability of zero isn't that important. You honestly have never played the tactical game. It is quite possibly THE most important aspect. It has to be right and it has to be right on the first shot, every time.

If you want to plink at the range and can use kentucky windage then by all means play around with cheap scopes until you find one that holds zero fine. If you want to play in the tactical game, which is what the initial post was about, dump as much money possible on the glass and quality rings/bases to get yourself something repeatable and solid through rough abuse. I'll take one $500 scope over 5 $100 scopes any day. I'll take one $200 scope over 2 $100 scopes. I wouldn't put a $100 scope on something like the original poster stated. I would let the rifle sit unused until I could afford even the bushnell 3200 10x tactical. I do have $100 scopes and I do have them on rifles, but they aren't rifles I run through the abuse a tactical scope goes through. They sit on rifles that shoot at the same distance and don't need much/any adjustment other than for any change in ammo used. There are the occasional good bargain basement scope out there that will track well but its rare and I doubt it will last through a season of even mild tactical use.
 
"The tactical game"...nice. ;)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=253051

Nicer. :neener:

A whole bunch of 4 and 5 star reviews. Works great. The Original poster could do a LOT worse. Then, when they are ready to level up, they can get a Swarowski and still have a functional scope in reserve.

It's funny, but the original poster didn't mention anything about this high-stress "tactical game". He said he wanted a beginner's scope to put on a Remington so he can learn. I think maybe you've had too much coffee.
 
He said he wanted to be proficient as a military sniper. Call that tactical or not, its pretty damn tactical. You shoot that $80 all day and enjoy yourself. I wouldn't use it if it was given to me. One day you will use a good scope and see the light, literally. I'm not saying he has to go straight to Swarowski but there certainly are much better budget scopes than anything China made today. They as a group are junk. Some may hold a zero well but they won't stand up to the abuse someone trying to become proficient as a military sniper will put them through. The funny thing is he never mentioned wanting a beginner scope. He said he wanted something between $200-$400 hopefully closer to $200. You keep suggesting junk $60-$80 scopes. You can call them a 4 star scope all you want but in the end they are the same junk they always have been. They're known as trashco for a reason.
 
We're not talking about a scope that you keep around to troubleshoot problems... we're talking about the scope he's going to mount to the rifle for permanent service. And a repeatable zero and accurate adjustments are critical for a scope where both will be adjusted frequently, maintaining the zero through the zoom range is vital too. Most of the type of shooting he'll be doing, if he's serious about his stated goal, will be at a variety of targets at unknown distances. I've had several cheapy scopes that did just fine if you never moved the turrets after getting them zeroed. This is fine for a 200 yard deer rifle, and you just pray that nothing gets jarred loose before that 160 class buck steps out at 200 yards. But if he shoots both close up (within the MPBR), and long range, and he shoots with any wind blowing, those repeatable and accurate adjustments are important.

But hey, if you like using glorified paperweights on your rifles, fine. I hope that you are happy with them. Me, I have better things to do than running back and forth to Walmart trying to find that one diamond-in-the-rough cheap scope.

I wrote what I did to council him against wasting his time or money on poor quality scopes. The choice is ultimately his. Maybe he'll get a good one, and maybe not. I somehow doubt that he'll come back here to tell us just how bad his cheap scope turned out to be. I'll stick with my Zeiss, you can keep your Tasco. I've got a working scope that will last beyond my lifetime and probably beyond my children's, too. And if not, Zeiss will fix it (because it's got a REAL Lifetime Transferrable Warrantee). Your Tasco will last forever too, if you keep it in that drawer you're so fond of. Somehow I doubt that the boys down at Quantico will be mounting a Tasco to an M40 anytime soon.

There are some basic rules and believe it or not the Chinese are very eager to make good optics.

No, the Chinese aristocracy is eager to make money (while their slave workers starve in ration lines), and if they can get away with selling uninformed Americans substandard products at seemingly great prices, that's what they care about. Lead paint on toys, toxins in baby formula... ringing any bells?

Mike
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top