Frustrated with five shot revolvers

[sleepyone]

Went to the range and shot my obligatory 20 rounds of FMJ 130 grain from my 642 with the standard grip. As usual, my hand hurt like heck afterwards. My wife has a Ruger LCR .38+P that is not quiet so hard on the hand but still not enjoyable. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with my 642. I keep telling myself and my wife that we won't even feel the recoil is a SD scenario. From 7 meters, I am all over the place. From 3 meters, my groups are good. I guess that is all I can expect from a snub nose revolver. I have been told most SD shootings take place within 3 meters. The main problem for me is I am not proficient with guns that don't have a rear sight. Then there is the matter of only having five rounds.

My wife also has a XD9 Subcompact that she likes much better for the home, but she won't carry it because she does not have, or want, a CC purse and does not like the extra weight of the XD fully loaded. I have a XD9 and XD40 both with 4"barrels. I love the XD platform.

I am seriously thinking of getting her a XDs in 9mm. It would have three more rounds than her Ruger LCR. Weight difference is probably not huge, but the XDs should be much easier and comfortable to carry/conceal. The LCR has a great grip, but it is larger than the 642 grip and not slick like the 642. The ONLY reason I keep the 642 is because it is so easy to conceal. I have a Mika pocket holster and I can put it in any of my jeans or shorts and forget I am carrying.

I would like to hear from those who have switched from a pocket revolver to the slim autos like the new XDs or even the older Ruger LCP and S&W Shield. Did you completely stop carrying your five-shot revolver or do you still carry it in certain situations?

Is anyone making pocket or belt holsters yet specifically for the XDs?

 

[perpster]

Snubbies are meant for close-in use, so your 3 meter results are what counts, not your 7 meter results. Snubbies have many advantages (and some disadvantages as you've noted). They can be fired from the pocket without the slide catching on clothing. They can be fired with the muzzle in contact with the attacker (semi-auto could be pushed slightly out of battery). There is much less chance of fail to fire. There are no safety or decocking levers to deal with.

Five rounds isn't a lot, but statistically most close-in gun fights are over after 2 or 3 rounds have been fired. A speed loader or 2nd gun can help. Or carry both the semi-auto and the snubby.

Lightweight snubbies like the 642 are called "carry a lot, shoot a little" for a reason. Don't be discouraged.

 

[hariph creek]

Snubbies can be plenty accurate. It's just harder to do.
I CC'd a five or six shot snub for years and years and...
I found them to be very accurate with practice. I also found that going with an all steel gun in .38+p was better. No flinch to kill accuracy or pain to take the fun out of shooting.

That said...I've switched over to the newer single stack 9mm, for my "always gun."
I'm running a Sig Sauer P290RS. The trigger is true DAO and feels like pretty decent DAO revolver. It made for an easy transition. It's 7rds of 9mm, in a go anywhere package. Recoil I'd negligible, accuracy is great.

The other sub-compact nines; Shield, Kahr, Sig 938, etc...are quite desirable as well.
If you like the XD line? The XDs seems like a sure thing. Do it.

 

[Twiki357]

All I carry are revolvers, S&W model 36 (OWB) or 37 (Pocket). And, yes. I want an exposed hammer. I just don't trust a semi-auto for SD, to much that can go wrong. And, yes, there will be a lot of people here who will disagree with me.... To each his own.

 

[perpster]

If you like the XD line? The XDs seems like a sure thing. Do it.

I do want to check out the XD-S .45 acp, but would still carry the revolver.

 

[toivo]

Try a set of these grips:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/..._750001_750051_766272_-1_758003_757843_757837

I believe they're the ones that come with the .357 J-frames. You can get one more finger on the grips, which gives a firmer hold with less "spank." The trade-off is that the make the pistol slightly less concealable. No more pocket carry, for instance, unless you wear cargo pants.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Snub nose revolvers are very accurate. Don't blame the gun if the shooter doesn't practice enough or correctly.

You quote distances for SD shooting but not the fact those same reports tell you a total of 3 shots are usually fired in a SD shoot.

Since when does a S&W M642 have no rear sight?

5 rounds @30 feet from a M442 J frame.



5 rounds of .357 Magnum @30 feet from a M640 w/2" barrel.

 

[PabloJ]

If you find and try six-shot S&W Model 12 all your problems will instantly go away. Choosing professional grade equipment is preferable to trying out amateur-grade toys.

 

[plateshooter]

I carried my J frame S&W revolvers for years, and usually shot them bi weekly or so. Recently, I purchased a Kahr CM9 and it is quickly replacing the J frame revolvers. Soft recoil, accurate, easy to carry and mine has never had a reliability issue of any kind. I am not selling any of my revolvers, but they get less carry time lately.

 

[StrawHat]

Maybe I shouldn't reply to this as I do not carry a self loader. I did carry a S&W M 36 for years. Matter of fact, I used it in PPC competition, as did most of the other shooters. Ranges out to 50 yards and we all shot scores comparible to what we got with the larger revolvers. All of us used stock revovlers with action work and different grips. I do not recall seeing anyone with adjustble sights, just the S&W groove and ramp.

Perhaps a bit more practice is needed by the OP.

 

[HexHead]

I routinely pocket carry a Colt DS, 6-shots, in a Mika pocket holster. I don't feel under gunned in the least.

I also have a S&W 438 if I'm wearing something with tighter pockets. I used to have a 442, and had switched to pocket carrying a .380, or my G26 when I wasn't carrying something larger IWB. I decided a revolver pocket carried better than a semi-auto did.

 

[hardluk1]

I carried a snubby for 20 years !! Switched to a Kahr cm9 for pocket duty and have a cw9 for iwb use. I still have my snubby and will not sell it but don't have a reason to cc it anymore.

 

[Cemo]

A 642 loaded weights about 16.5 oz. A XDS 9 comes in at about 26 oz. Sometimes I carry a LCP or a 642 in a pocket holster. I don't really notice the weight of either, but the LCP is still less noticeable. With either of these guns I can do a reasonably fast presentation, which is very important. I prefer to carry a little bigger gun when I can and for me that means going to belt carry. By bigger, I mean easier to grip, higher capacity and more power. IMO when pocket carry weight approaches 20 oz. it is too heavy. There was a rash of thin sub-compact 9MM pistols that came on the market the last few years. Personally I haven't found any of the thin nines to be satisfactory for pocket carry. The problem I found is when loaded they get too heavy and the trigger reach of some of these is way too short. Trying to get one of these out the pocket in a fast draw for me is impossible. I bought an XDS 45 for belt carry and love it for that purpose and after shooting mine, the wife got one but in 9MM. If you can find it, you might try some of the low recoil 38 ammo in your 642, such as Hornady's new "38 Special 90 gr FTX® Critical Defense® LITE" ammo.

 

[Apple a Day]

I have a Hogue grip on my 637. The standard boot grip is just too small for my hand and it makes shooting the gun uncomfortable. With the Hogue grip it's a completely different story. The revolver is dead-nutz accurate with 158 grain ammo so that's all I shoot or carry.

I used to have an all steel j-frame and the heavier gun was even more comfortable to shoot. Light guns aren't as fun.

I had an oversized wooden birds head grip on it but that made it impossible to use speed loaders so it got nixed.

 

[WBCCI3371]

Wheel vs. Semi

5 rounds does not do it for me either. I have owned a Smith Chief's Special Model 60 for 40 years and found it adequate until I found Glocks.

I like the higher capacity, better accuracy and easier shooting.

Just my opinion.

Rich

 

[40-82]

Anything much better than your 5-shot snub nosed .38 is going to be a belt carry gun. By all means when you can carry something bigger you should, but a .38 in the pocket is better than being naked.

If you're all over the place on the target at 7 yards, you have a gun useful to you only at contact ranges. You can do better than that if you put enough time in double action shooting. The other day a friend came by with his new 5-shot .38 pocket gun, and he noted that my groups at 7-yards were as good as the groups I was shooting with a 6-inch L-frame Smith. What he didn't note was that I shot much slower with the small gun. No matter how much you practice with the small gun, the gap between what you can do with it and something bigger will always be there. You'll always be more secure with something bigger, but you can't always carry a full-sized gun everywhere.

 

[2wheels]

It took me a while to get the hang of my 442, and I still haven't totally mastered it, but you should be able to get decent groups at 7+ yards.

You need to practice practice practice with that DA trigger, practice dry firing it at home while concentrating on keeping the front sight steady and practice at the range as much as you can. I learned that part of my problem was my finger placement on the trigger.

I've got a Sig P238, and I do love that little gun. But between the two, I think I prefer my 442.

 

[buck460XVR]

If you find and try six-shot S&W Model 12 all your problems will instantly go away. Choosing professional grade equipment is preferable to trying out amateur-grade toys.

It is recommended that one not use +p ammo in a Model 12, to some that would make IT amateur-grade. I think the non-use of +p ammo may solve the problem for the OP in the guns he already owns as it seems the anticipation of recoil may be part of his accuracy problem......that along with not knowing where the rear sight is on the gun. Air-weight guns are know to bite. Nature of the beast. CWC guns are always a trade-off. Those that are easily carried and concealed are the one most uncomfortable to shoot. Those that are most pleasant to shoot are a pain in the butt to carry. I recommend the OP find standard ammo to practice with and stay away from the +p except for occasional practice and carry. I much rather carry my 1911, but find most of the time the 637 is on me, cause it just fits better. The chances of needing more than 5 shots is even less than the miniscule chance I'll ever have to use it.

 

[Skyshot]

I carry nothing but a LCR in the summer. I find it a whole lot easier to conceal in shorts and tee shirt apparel than any of the small semiauto's with the exception of maybe an LCP. But then I'm not a .380 fan. As for accuracy, my .38 will put all five inside a softball size target at ten yards. The deal with the snubbie is, that it's totally a defensive firearm. If you can hit a man size target within 5 feet and put at least a couple in the vitals, then you shouldn't have a beef. Yes, I prefer to carry my full size CZ97B in .45ACP, but it's just not practical in hot weather.

 

[beatledog7]

The questions for anyone who carries for SD, regardless of what specific firearm one carries, is whether the groups he can shoot at the range are a real indication of whether he can make enough hits in a real SD scenario. Practice matters more than the choice of weapon.

Snubbies can hurt the hand after a few dozen shots, but SD rarely requires more than a handful of shots. And they are not inaccurate. I've proven through shooting off a rest that my 642 can shoot <2" groups at 17 yards (the limit of my favorite range). Without consistent practice, the best I can expect to shoot offhand at 7 yards with it is 4-5" deliberate fire groups. I can shrink that to 2-3" at 3-1/2 yards, but I'd have to add about twice that back for my draw, fast fire, and real-world stress. That means my "attacker is coming at me with a knife" group might be 6-9" or even more. That'll get me hits, but it'll also mean some misses. Not enough hits to ensure a stop, IMHO.

When I get consistent practice, I can shrink my 642 7-yard slow fire groups to 2" or less and my 3-1/2 yard groups to <1.5" of that. Using the same rough math, that would give me an SD group of about 4.5". That will probably get the job done.

I've recently acquired a TCP and am experimenting with it as a carry gun. Two more rounds on tap and a faster reload than the 642 might be the difference in an SD scenario, and it's really easy to conceal. So far I'm pretty lousy with it.

When it's feasible to carry something bigger and with more shots before a reload, that's what I'm doing more and more. But not to a slim or compact 9mm, at least not so far. Smallish semi-autos in 9mm are an appropriate carry compromise for some folks in some scenarios, but for my current needs, moving up from a snubby or pocket pistol means carrying a full-size or close to full-size handgun in a .40 or larger caliber (or a 357 Sig). If it has to be on my belt, then it should be a not be a compromise. Practice or not, I can shoot much better groups using larger guns with a longer sight radius and better sights, such as a Glock 22 or Baby Eagle 45, and .40+ calibers pack more punch. (OK, I love the .357 Magnum, but I reserve full-size revolvers for the fairly rare open carry.)

Can I put more rounds on target in an SD scenario with them? Logically, if they carry more rounds, yes. However, the least responsible way to make more SD shots count is to simply fire more shots and not worry about where the misses go. The way we ought to do it is through appropriate practice with whatever we chose to carry, thereby shrinking the number of misses.

 

[Bikewer]

I carried small-frame revolvers for many years, standard stuff for police officers off-duty.
The main thing I found that helps is good grips. Stock small-frame Smith grips are just dreadful... Especially with a "lightweight" frame.

I've got an old Taurus 85, stainless, with the rubber Pachmayr-like grips... Comfortable to shoot and quite accurate.

That being said, I finally broke down and bought a Glock 27. Never was happy with only 5 rounds of .38 special.

 

[royal barnes]

Practice is the key to any handgun but particularly a LW snubnose. Dry fire a lot using snap caps. I carried a 642 or a Cobra as a BUG and off duty for my entire career as a LEO. Our department issued Federal 125 grain non +p hollow points for qualification and carry. We were required to shoot the same qual course as for duty guns. I preferred standard wood stocks with Tyler T Grips. Never had any problem scoring in the mid 90's with either pistol. It's nothing but practice, practice, practice.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have to qualify with my off-duty weapons annually. I also shoot in the mid 90's or better with my snubs. I generally can shoot a tighter group with my SP101 than I can my duty G22.

 

[David E]

Went to the range and shot my obligatory 20 rounds of FMJ 130 grain from my 642 with the standard grip. As usual, my hand hurt like heck afterwards.

The standard grip suck! There are several better options available.

I can't hit the broad side of a barn with my 642. From 7 meters, I am all over the place. From 3 meters, my groups are good. I guess that is all I can expect from a snub nose revolver.

You've been misinformed. The GUN is fully capable of tight groups at 7, 10, 15 yds and beyond. Any quality gun can shoot "minute of basketball" at 25 yds, easily. Your statement reads like you're giving yourself an easy out: I guess that is all I can expect from a snub nose revolver. No, it's not. Now, what are you going to do about it?

The main problem for me is I am not proficient with guns that don't have a rear sight.

No, you're not proficient with it because you don't practice with it.

So, again, what are you going to do about it?

 

[Old Fuff]

I won't get into the revolver vs. pistol argument because both have they're strong and weak points.

However in the hands of an experienced shooter a snubby (including J-frame Smith & Wesson's) are more then accurate enough to keep shots inside the K-Zone of a B-27 silhouette target at 50 yards and beyond. My Colt Detective Special has done that at 100, on repeated occasions.

Where a problem does come up is when someone buys a lightweight, small revolvers and loads it with ammunition that insures that shooting it will hurt, cause flinching and trigger pull jerking, and make targets that looks like it was hit with buckshot.

Finding a selection of appropriate practice and carry ammunition these days is difficult, but I suggest that for both carry and practice you consider 148-grain mid-range .38 Special cartridges usually recommended for target shooting. Also for practice consider 130-grain FMJ loads that duplicate what was formally issued in U.S. military services, that is known for relatively soft recoil and usually less expensive then other ammunition.

Get into reloading (or know someone who does) and you can make ammunition that fits your exact requirements and recoil tolerance.

If your J-frame or other snubby isn’t pocket carried consider getting larger stocks that spread the recoil over a larger area of the hand.

Also going to a larger S&W model 10, Ruger SP101 or Colt Detective Special (my favorite) will give you 6 shots (except the Ruger), in a much easier to shoot package