Full-auto blackmarket?

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Considering you sadly can buy people (yes sadly slavery still exists, now its called human traficking), US fighter jet engines, Russian nukes (bet most are dud's though, or loaded with tracking devices\bugs), Russian tanks, etc... on the black market. Buying illegally converted full auto guns or stolen full auto guns? I am shocked! Shocked!

It sucks a lot this is how it is, but treat the disease, not the symptom. Fight the whole rotten black market worldwide, not just the part that sells firearms.
 
I have seen two demilled Uzi's: the first was an early type demill that was still functional and could have been restored to near original condition by a competent welder; the second wasn't functional and would have taken a very competant craftsman to restore to funtioning status. I don't recall the exact price the owner paid but it was negligible.
 
The closest I have been to the black market in the US was when I was approached on the range by a stranger who wanted to buy an AR sear. This was hilarious because I was in uniform (military officer) and had never seen the man before.

I am pretty sure he was an ATF informant as they were active in the area at the time and he seemed even dumber than most crooks. I told I could hook him up with just about any kind of weapon up to a heavy tank or 155 self propelled artillery but he would have to sign up first. :)
 
Silly people....we all really know that our entire vast supply of automatic weapons are being sent into Mexico, destroying their beautiful, uncorrupted country. How dare we!

Just the other day I went to the local market to get some RPGs....and sure enough..they had sold them all to Mexico again! The nerve!

I know all of this is true because Eric Holder said so. :rolleyes:
 
my two cents worth

About 2 years ago someone approached me at a local gun show looking to sell an AK47 that he "modified to run full auto"

A friend told me Sullivan Co Sheriff's Office testfired a confiscated semi-auto Uzi that had been kitchen table converted to full auto; without advanced primer ignition (firing as the bolt moves forward like a real military Uzi), the cobbled-together FA Uzi was vibrating loose after three mags. To steal a sig line, "Owning a Dremel tool does not make oneself a John Moses Browning." Illicit FA conversion usually makes unreliable jail bait.

Post#27 by Quiet IIRC this was the famous Chinese freighter Empress Phoenix case in San Francisco. Also, couple of articles on the US - Mexican gun trade mention the San Diego CA case of a shipping container of "sewing machine parts"--M2 carbines and grenade launchers left behind by US in VietNam and entered into the world black market, probably intended for Mexican gangs via Asian gun runners.

as the WW2 generation is passing on FA war trophies may be showing up and being disposed of. If the gun was properly papered as a war trophy bring back by one's commanding officer in WWII, there is supposed to be a process that it is eligible for entry in the NFA registry in the name of the heirs, the WWII papers representing a recognised registration. Given the collector's value of Thompson's, that might help the family to contact both an estate attorney knowledgeable in that area of law.

how much FA would add to the sentence of a perp who was a felon already The Branch Davidians without felony records got twenty and thirty year sentence enhancements for having full auto weapons in a federal felony (even though they were acquitted of murder charges at jury trial). Those sentences were later overturned w/o publicity by SCOTUS. Use of a FA in a federal felony can result in a sentence enhancement greater than the sentence for the felony itself, especially with prior felony record.

If you break into somebody's home and steal his ...(gun)... you are not going to keep that. You are going to sell it Wright & Rossi's felon survey book "Armed and Dangerous" reported that most stolen guns go the way of stolen TVs, VCRs, etc: sold for money and not kept for crime .

Fredrick Forsyth, The Dogs of War For a fictional treatment of black market machine guns.
 
SFPD Officer Issac Espinoza was killed by a criminal who used a selective fire AK-47. It's quite possible that the two Oakland PD SWAT officers were killed by a rapist/murderer (he had already killed two Oakland motorcycle officers that day) who used a selective fire AK.

So, is there a market?
 
There is a market for averything at some level. Any of us could buy a drop in part for $145 or so from a number of vendors advertising in Shotgun News that will convert our AR15s to full auto. I would expect the ATF to visit these vendor's regularly to get their customer lists as it seems to me possession of these parts would be a strong indicator of a potential violation.
 
Montanas the place to be.

If im not mistaking i believe that Montana has passed a law making FA weapons in the state legal so long as it was manufactured in the state.
 
It sucks a lot this is how it is, but treat the disease, not the symptom. Fight the whole rotten black market worldwide, not just the part that sells firearms.

Thats optimistic... unfortunately, as long as things are banned/illegal, there will always be a black market and there is nothing anyone can do about it. War's on guns/drugs/terror/etc... only attack the "symptom" as you put it... and do so at the expense of all of our rights.

If you want to get rid of the black market... stop prohibition. It is the only way.

...
 
If im not mistaking i believe that Montana has passed a law making FA weapons in the state legal so long as it was manufactured in the state.

You are mistaken... FA is still banned according to a clause in the bill (I believe part 4 section 5).
 
SFPD Officer Issac Espinoza was killed by a criminal who used a selective fire AK-47. It's quite possible that the two Oakland PD SWAT officers were killed by a rapist/murderer (he had already killed two Oakland motorcycle officers that day) who used a selective fire AK.

So, is there a market?

I've read some reports that he used an SKS and some that said he used an AK47 of some variation. I didn't read anywhere that he used a select fire weapon. Where did you read that? Maybe I missed it.

I know he shot the first 2 officers with a handgun, the 3rd and 4th were shot with a rifle, one of them outside the building he was inside of. I guess it's all just details now that the scumbag is no longer a threat.
 
Automatic weapons are available. The question is how bad do you want one and at what price. On a trip thru N.C. last year I stopped by an old Army buddies house, but who has since past away. We shared many old war stories. He told one about how he obtained a M3 45 caliber grease gun many years ago but still enjoyed shooting it. I laughed and said sure you still shoot it in your mind. He left the room and returned with a military issue M3 in like new condition. I believe there are 100's of thousands of such weapons out there.
 
cauberallies: "bought a cheap AK(although it sounded more like a bubba'd SKS by the description), and tried to "convert" it to full auto by filing down the firing pin, and a few other things"

LOL good thing to fle down to make if full auto.... hope all the crooks read the same book.

See Hillary is right when it comes to the USA moving automatic guns to Mexico..perhaps a AW ban is in order.
 
There is a black market for everything, but full auto isn't all that useful in most criminal or civilian contexts. I bet the amount of gun-narc-bait is about on a par with actual on-the-market contraband offered up for sale. If someone in a bar is offering to sell you an unpapered buzz gun, or disappear your ex, chances are even or better you are being tooled.
 
most is bull

most of the stories are bull.after the 1934 NFA was passed most of the thompsons were gone and the company went under.WW2 revived it there were few made before WW2 and the british revived the business.there are a lot of legal MG.and what better story than to say look at this I have to keep it hidden or I am in trouble.there are a number of unregistered guns but not that many.
the story by the ATF about the davidians having full auto was a lie.one of the dividians had a FFL and bought parts of AR15 to put together and sell at gun shows.no one ever could inspect the remains as the ATF got rid of all the evidence.it was a totall screw up and murder.but of course the main item was they were not the main stream religion and were destroyed.reminds me of the group that had their children taken away.you dont here a thing about them any more.same with MG it makes good print.
same as ruby ridge.
and people believe every word.
 
I think you may a have a point or two there TEDDY, however to call most of the stories on here bull without proof may be pushing things a bit.

Of all places on the internet this is one of the few places that I would like to trust. I mean or else all I really have is CNN and all those emails about saving Nigerian royalty and growing a 'magnum' while doing that. :)
 
How popular are/were AR-180 Sterlings for gangs? I would imagine the folding stock would be sought after for drive-by shootings.
 
Some depression era gangsters would stock up on BAR, Thompson & 1911 by breaking in local National Guard armories.
 
John Dillinger's source for thompsons was theft from police stations.

The Bonnie & Clyde gang had BARs from National Guard armories.

Ma Barker and Sons bought stolen Army guns from fences.

Al Capone allegedly offered $3000 for Thompsons no questions (the retail MSRP was 175.00 to 200.00, a 15x premium).

A foreign enemy will dump illegal surplus into the black market to destabilise an enemy country.

Lotsa illegal sources for illegal guns.
 
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Back in the mid 90's I visited the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office firearms lab a few times. When the received firearms there after they were processed as evidence, if the gun was stolen they would try to find the rightful owner, if they gun was an illegal type or no rightful owner could be found the guns were sorted. The junk guns were melted down. If it was a nice gun or had reference value or could be of use, they checked how many they already had of that model, if they had enough they checked with other area departments to see if any of them wanted it. If it could not be disposed of that way, then it was destroyed. Over the years they had built up an impressive collection of mostly handguns but other interesting stuff as well. There was a 30 gallon trash can in one corner full of silencers. Mostly old Sionics cans for Mac-10's on a number of homemade cans; some of them very well made. The head of the lab had on his desk an original Maxim silencer with the mailing tube it was shipped in and the receipt. It was shipped to California in 1912. Was part of an estate and was checked and had never been registered.

They did have an extensive collection of unregistered machine guns. Mostly WW II through Vietnam era weapons. A rack full of Beretta 38/42 sub machine guns, some MP-41 smg's, a lot of PPsH-41 and 43's, a rack of Thompsons, some grease guns, about 2 racks of M16 and AK rifles (all original select fire, not converted) even some belt fed toys. I saw 5 Steyr AUG rifles that were converted to full auto. They even had a couple of Trejo pistols from Mexico (think Walther TPH with a selector switch).

I asked where most of the guns came from and was told the most common scenario was grandpa died and the family finds the gun stored somewhere. The take it out to Angeles National Forest and try it out. Some hears it and call the Sheriff's Office and they have a new addition to their collection. The Trejo pistols were taken off of gang members, and some other guns were also captured from actual criminal.
The scariest story was how they got their M2HB .50 BMG. Deputies responded to a call of a man sitting in a van and acting strange at Long Beach Airport. They removed a seriously disturbed man from the van (he ended up in a mental hospital) and in the back of the van they found the M2, pointed toward the rear of the van, mounted on a tripod, and loaded with a belt of ammo.:what:

Two other quickies, Phoenix PD forensics lab had an MG-34 hanging up on the wall that the department confiscated. The owner claimed the gun was legal because it had been deactivated. It had been deactived by driving a brass rod down the barrel. Once the removed the rod the gun ran just fine.

When I was working back east, this small town had a WWI memorial on the couthouse plaza complete with a Maxim MG-08 on display. Had been put their in the '50's by the VFW. It was starting to look bad because of so many layers of paint on it so they asked the company I was working for to help with cleaning it up and making it look presentable again. When we got through all the paint and got the gun apart we discovered it was a live gun that had never been deactivated:uhoh:. The bluing on the interior was in pristine condition, the gun had possibly never been fired. We did make sure and fix that problem before we deactivated it:neener:. ATF was ok with how we deactivated it (the company was a class 2 manufacturer) and the gun is back on display.

My experience seems to indicate there are more illegal machine guns out there than a lot of us think, but it is fairly rare that any of them are used by bad guys.
 
All the bad guys in today's movies have full auto guns, and they get them from the guy in the alley selling out of the trunk of his car.

So... that means it is true.:eek:
 
you can make an AK full auto with a cost of about 5 dollars (or less) Oh, and BTW... it isnt TECHNICALLY illegal either. as the trigger is pulled each time.
 
it is actually quite easy with nothing more than a small bungy chord and a key ring...
 
Anyone with access to the internet can convert most semi-auto rifles to FA with alittle know how...
 
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