so nobody gets any ideas,no I don't own any full auto stuff.I'm just curious bout them.I have checked the WWW. and I think what I'm looking at is right.The best I can figure out,it's ok to own machine gun parts,the internals of say a Thompson,50 cal BMG,Vickers ect. long as you don't have the unregistered receiver. But you can't have a drop in auto sear for an AR-15. The DIAS is the machine gun. I know we are talking about the ATF, but I can't see the logic in the thinking. It's been a while since I've seen a sales ad for a DIAS in shotgun news . But you see ads all the time for BMG rebuild kits. And saw one the other day for a Vickers. Oh well,just wondering...jwr
full auto parts or ???
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
A DIAS or Lightning Link (or registered full-auto trigger pack for guns that can take them...mostly H&Ks) is a registered machine gun all by itself. It can be installed in any "host" weapon and run it full-auto, and swapped between appropriate semi-auto ("Title I") firearms at will.
Most autoloading arms, however, must have the receiver itself registered as a machine gun in order to be legally fired full-auto. In each case there is some factor about the receiver that the BATFE deems THE full-auto characteristic. In an AK, it's the rate-reducer axis pin hole being drilled. In FALs, it's a part of the receiver that's clearanced away so the full-auto parts can be installed. In many sub-guns, it's a certain configuration of the receiver that allows a full-auto style bolt to be installed (semis have a spur or flange that allows only a semi-auto style bolt to fit).
Etc., etc. Each case is a little different.
The full-auto fire control parts of many guns (like AR-15s or AKs) are perfectly legal to own, even if you own that rifle, but your rifle must not be cut/drilled to allow them to be installed.
And, of course, for all other instances of weapons, if it walks like a duck...it's a duck. (If it fires multiple shots with one pull of the trigger, it IS a machine gun, period, no matter what the internal configuration is or isn't.)
Most autoloading arms, however, must have the receiver itself registered as a machine gun in order to be legally fired full-auto. In each case there is some factor about the receiver that the BATFE deems THE full-auto characteristic. In an AK, it's the rate-reducer axis pin hole being drilled. In FALs, it's a part of the receiver that's clearanced away so the full-auto parts can be installed. In many sub-guns, it's a certain configuration of the receiver that allows a full-auto style bolt to be installed (semis have a spur or flange that allows only a semi-auto style bolt to fit).
Etc., etc. Each case is a little different.
The full-auto fire control parts of many guns (like AR-15s or AKs) are perfectly legal to own, even if you own that rifle, but your rifle must not be cut/drilled to allow them to be installed.
And, of course, for all other instances of weapons, if it walks like a duck...it's a duck. (If it fires multiple shots with one pull of the trigger, it IS a machine gun, period, no matter what the internal configuration is or isn't.)
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Flyincedar
Member
Depending on the gun, those parts alone can constitue a machine gun. Guns like the m2 carbine (I use that example because its a specific example in the NFA Handbook) for example... Certain parts serve no purpose in a semi suto firearm, therefore those parts are a machine gun. You would think that by that logic, all auto sears, etc would be classified as such, but thats not the case. If in doubt, write ATF about a specific situation. Their response in your documented legal answer. If they tell you something, get it in writing, or its worthless
Those kits you see, if not a semi kit, are for either folks like myself who are licensed to build new machine guns, or folks like yourself, if you found, say, a registered pre 86 BMG sideplate. That right sideplate is the registered part, so you could build a brand new BMG with that sideplate, and you're good to go
Those kits you see, if not a semi kit, are for either folks like myself who are licensed to build new machine guns, or folks like yourself, if you found, say, a registered pre 86 BMG sideplate. That right sideplate is the registered part, so you could build a brand new BMG with that sideplate, and you're good to go
medalguy
Member
You said I can't see the logic in the thinking. We ARE talking about government regs here, right? Whatever gave you the impression any government regs had to make sense?? 
pmj341
Member
So,I'm looking to make a Full auto AR or SBR what would be the proper procedure(Legal) to do that?? I understand a stamp will be needed
will I have to buy a pre 87 lower or can I build or buy and register one??
will I have to buy a pre 87 lower or can I build or buy and register one??
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
You cannot make a full auto weapon as a private citizen. If the gun was not registered as full-auto before May of 1986, it cannot legally be made into a full-auto which can be owned by a private citizen.
For making an SBR (or other "NFA Tile II" device) you'll need to file a Form 5320.1 (a "Form 1") to make and register that firearm. There are plenty of instructions here on how to go about that. (Do a search or read the stickies in the NFA forum.)
There are two exceptions to this statement which is true.
Registered Drop in Auto Sear
or
Registered Lightning Link
A Lightning Link being the cheapest route. However, only allows for F/A only. After all its a .05cent piece of metal that sells from $7,000-10,000 usd..
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Ok...those aren't really exceptions as they aren't "making" a full-auto firearm. They are, in and of themselves, registered machine guns.
However, effectively they do make a host gun run full-auto so most folks wouldn't make that distinction, so they may indeed answer the question.
However, effectively they do make a host gun run full-auto so most folks wouldn't make that distinction, so they may indeed answer the question.
medalguy
Member
So,I'm looking to make a Full auto AR or SBR
Two different animals here. Sam said it, you cannot "make" a new MG. You can purchase a registered, transferable lower receiver which MUST already be in the registry, and add whatever parts you wish to that receiver.
In the case of a SBR, you go the Form 1 route and that's perfectly legal.
The DIAS is indeed a special case, since it is the MG and that single part must be registered. If you locate one that was not registered, it is considered an illegal unregistered MG. They are out there.
Two different animals here. Sam said it, you cannot "make" a new MG. You can purchase a registered, transferable lower receiver which MUST already be in the registry, and add whatever parts you wish to that receiver.
In the case of a SBR, you go the Form 1 route and that's perfectly legal.
The DIAS is indeed a special case, since it is the MG and that single part must be registered. If you locate one that was not registered, it is considered an illegal unregistered MG. They are out there.
"The DIAS is indeed a special case, since it is the MG and that single part must be registered. If you locate one that was not registered, it is considered an illegal unregistered MG. They are out there."
There were DIAS's made before the 1986 law and before the DIAS was ruled a machinegun in and by itself and numbering/registration required. Those DIAS's were and are simply parts.
When BATFE made the DIAS=MG ruling, they did not call in those unnumbered and unregistered DIAS's, nor did they require that they be transferred on a Form 4. So, those DIAS's are legal to own and legal to sell without NFA paperwork or tax.
BUT, the possession of an unnumbered DIAS and a semi-auto AR-15 is considered evidence of intent to manufacture a machinegun, a crime.
Some semi-auto AR-15's were converted to selective fire by use of a DIAS and registered prior to 1986. Those are perfectly legal and transferrable. The registration is not of the unnumbered DIAS, but of the AR-15 host and the papers show that serial number.
A side note: Just before the DIAS=MG ruling went into effect, some makers turned out hundreds of DIAS's, made out of cheap materials, even cast zinc. Needless to say, those won't hold up for more than a few shots. So some folks who have paid goodly amounts of money and risked arrest to buy and install one of those pieces of junk will soon find that it was all in vain as the DIAS breaks or wears out quickly.
Jim
There were DIAS's made before the 1986 law and before the DIAS was ruled a machinegun in and by itself and numbering/registration required. Those DIAS's were and are simply parts.
When BATFE made the DIAS=MG ruling, they did not call in those unnumbered and unregistered DIAS's, nor did they require that they be transferred on a Form 4. So, those DIAS's are legal to own and legal to sell without NFA paperwork or tax.
BUT, the possession of an unnumbered DIAS and a semi-auto AR-15 is considered evidence of intent to manufacture a machinegun, a crime.
Some semi-auto AR-15's were converted to selective fire by use of a DIAS and registered prior to 1986. Those are perfectly legal and transferrable. The registration is not of the unnumbered DIAS, but of the AR-15 host and the papers show that serial number.
A side note: Just before the DIAS=MG ruling went into effect, some makers turned out hundreds of DIAS's, made out of cheap materials, even cast zinc. Needless to say, those won't hold up for more than a few shots. So some folks who have paid goodly amounts of money and risked arrest to buy and install one of those pieces of junk will soon find that it was all in vain as the DIAS breaks or wears out quickly.
Jim
H&K trigger packs require alteration to be considered a machinegun in their own right, if I recall correctly. I.e. the parts have to be able to fit together (trigger pack and receiver).
An unaltered trigger pack will not fit or work on an unaltered receiver.
It's when you change both so they fit together, that you're in trouble.
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