Funny interaction with a sheriff

[BigBore44]

What I find missing from this discussion is that police don't just show up randomly to people's homes to do a cursory search. They get called to respond to something. Cops have enough going on to keep them busy. And if they aren't busy, they will either catch up on paperwork, patrol, or run traffic. Walking up to random homes and knocking on doors is not part of their everyday routine. While it may be random to the homeowners, it's not random to the LEO. With the way officers are perceived today, I can only imagine what they think every time they have to knock on someone's door. Actually, I do know what a lot of them think. Because I've asked. And it's not a pleasant feeling.

At the end of the day, we all make the choice how to interact with police. Those who (like the OP) choose a positive interaction, will likely tend to have future positive interactions. Those who choose to be short or let's say "less than openly friendly" shouldn't be surprised if no leeway is ever granted them should something questionable arise. We all break laws everyday. It's almost unavoidable. But should that ever happen and a stop is made. You're odds of being let go with a warning are greatly increased.

Officers don't tend to get a lot of cooperation these days. Sometimes, that's their own faults. But when cooperation, and going beyond cooperation to the point of friendliness is given, it's MUCH more likely to be returned and remembered. We always praise our military and rightfully so. They are our defenders. But even they have very bad apples among them.

Looks like we lost another officer in NY two days ago while chasing a suspect. One of 20,000+ fallen heroes since 1971. Good thing he wasn't militarized with all the equipment needed to "help" keep him safe.

 

[gearhead]

I literally have one of those on my counter, it's a hemostat that I use for removing hooks from fish mouths but to an overzealous cop (in another state) it could be viewed as drug paraphernalia.
When we ran cattle it wasn't unusual to find syringes and needles in our trucks and homes that a metro raised cop who doesn't know country people do their own vet work but instead could view it as contraband, same could be said of diabetics or others with conditions they self treat.

Excellent point. My hobby is building accurate, detailed scaled models of historic American racing vehicles. Several of my tools, laying out in plain view on my workbench, could draw suspicion and I do use hemostats from time to time for clamping and holding small parts. The thing that would probably get the most attention however is the 100+ cans of spray paint that I have accumulated over the years to replicate specific colors and finishes. I also have almost a dozen types of glues, from highly volatile solvents that literally "weld" plastic to various adhesive compounds, cyanocrylates, and 2-part epoxies. So because most of the people an officer might come in contact with who possess hemostats and large quantities of "airplane dope" and spray paint are using them to get high maybe he sees that as probable cause even though everything on that list is legal to purchase and own as long as it's used for lawful purposes?

 

[BigBore44]

X-Rap,
I too have hemostats, several pare. And even a couple needles. I keep them in my truck as well as in my house. The Hemostats have several uses. None of which are illegal or nefarious. Hemostats are mainly used for removing gut hooked fish and splinters. But also if I drop a small screw or something else into a tight space I can't reach. The needles are for splinters. Should I ever get stopped or invite an officer in my house and an inquiry is made, I will simply explain without fear or hesitation.

 

[Sam1911]

I certainly see your point BigBore. Be friendly and open because then maybe the officer will be lenient and turn a blind eye for you if you should meet someday in less favorable (to you) circumstances. Give a little, get a little. You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.

And that's fine, to whatever degree one might feel comfortable with that unspoken arrangement.

But what does that mean to you, exactly, in the OP's situation? Obviously letting the officer look at the guns and enter your bedroom and gun cabinet is sure being open and friendly and making the officer not feel negatively about how unpleasant his job is.

But I'm sure you'd acknowledge the risks of such an incredibly forthcoming approach. What do you think would have been an acceptably "cooperative and friendly" way for the OP to handle this without exposing himself recklessly?

 

[gvaldeg1]

I couldn't help but notice that one reply was from Ed Ames. Are you related to the Ed Ames who was the notorious tomahawk thrower on the Johnny Carson show?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L5QC9ZJkM8

If you can't have guns in California, maybe you could buy a tomahawk.

 

[X-Rap]

There are so many variables but since the OP actually took the LEO to his vault I'd like to point out another concern I'd have.
I don't know how many guns or how much ammo, powder, primers he has in that area but I can't count the times I've heard personal collections called arsenals or hoards by LEO and media. Having that vision imprinted in the friendly LEO's mind can't be productive on any level even if he is of like mind what he sees and repeats to co workers that may not share his enthusiasm.
Over the years I know many of us have transformed from being helpful, informative and proud of our passion to being much more paranoid, reclusive and private about what we have, but also understand that you can't unring that bell.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't know how many guns or how much ammo, powder, primers he has in that area but I can't count the times I've heard personal collections called arsenals or hoards by LEO and media. Having that vision imprinted in the friendly LEO's mind can't be productive on any level even if he is of like mind what he sees and repeats to co workers that may not share his enthusiasm.

Wow, good point! And something that perhaps very poignently counterbalances BigBore's points about giving a little to get a little, and how the police may not view you favorably if you don't open up and show them whatever they ask to see.

If you act furtive and suspicious and hostile, sure the police officer may start to believe you've got some things to hide, or are just a jerk that he's justified (in his own mind) in yanking around a bit.

But how many of us have a hobby room or closet that would make the hairs stand up on the back of many non-gunny people's necks? "Holy cow there must have been 20-30 guns in there! And THOUSANDS of rounds of ammo! Woah, what's this guy preparing for? World War EIGHT? He might be harmless, but whoo boy, what a nut job! We're going to be keeping an eye on this old coot, for sure! I'll bet we're going to see him on the news sooner or later! No honest man needs THAT much ..."

 

[Old Dog]

This whole thread seems mildly annoying to me, for a myriad of reasons.

No, I do not understand why the OP would actually allow a cop into his house, into a bedroom, open a gun safe, etc., taking the cop's word that his agency had received vague complaints about someone selling guns out of a house.

Presuming the private firearms transactions were conducted in accordance with applicable state laws, the OP most certainly could have conducted a brief conversation on the front porch, explaining to the officer what had transpired and no laws were broken. Absent probable cause (seemingly non-existent in this case) and/or a warrant, the officer would then have been forced to take his leave.

Any seizure or arrest from an encounter such as this (had the officer decided a crime had been committed based on what was observed in plain view) wouldn't have passed the Horton test. Even with the officer lawfully inside the domicile based upon the resident's consent, in order for the officer to seize any items and/or effect an arrest, the officer must have probable cause to believe the item(s) is/were evidence of a crime or is/are contraband. The police cannot move objects to, for example, check serial numbers. He has to be able to establish probable cause to seize it without moving it for closer examination and the evidentiary or contraband nature of the item must be immediately recognizable, without further search or testing.

Presuming private firearms sales are legal in the OP's state, any law enforcement agency going out to check a private residence based on a phone call (or calls) saying gun sales are taking place is gonna be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to respond in this situation. Must be either a sleepy little burg with bored cops or a haven for illegal arms sales to engender a personal visit.

As for how one treats a cop who shows up on his doorstep in such a situation, common courtesy and respect is always good, but shouldn't include inviting the officer in the absence of a warrant.

 

[nathan]

Sheriffs are elected by the people. But if they are not pro citizen's rights, they are like the rest of them which are anti citizen's civil rights. The Us against Them mentality.

 

[guyfromohio]

I don't think that respect for the law precludes respect for police.

 

[BigBore44]

Sam,
I in no way said anything about sctratching backs for favors. And for you to jump to that statement speaks for itself. I said cooperative and even friendly. I just have no issue with inviting any of "our local LEO's" into my home should they show up. I know too many. From city, county, some highway patrol and even a few Feds. In fact, I've only had 2 less than favorable interactions with LE. One was a traffic ticket for my exhaust being too loud (it wasn't). The other was I stopped one night (in another larger city) to look at a boat at a car dealership that had several cars broken into the previous week. I didn't know. And I was pulled over by one unit who I assume requested backers because I had a friend in the car and I wasn't from that town when he ran my plates. The officer who wrote the ticket, later apologized for how he handled the situation and we've been friends ever since. The boat incident I got 3 guns drawn on me. After I stayed calm and spoke to the officers, they too apologized and we stood around and BS'd and cracked a few jokes about it. They didn't know me before, but they knew me after. Never had another problem.

But you asked how I would have handled it in the OP's case. Turned the porch light on, made my hands visible, asked about the reason for the visit, explained that I did in fact have guns for sale and if the officer would like to take a look and possibly sees anything he/she is interested in, I might just start the sale early if they had the funds in hand, or hold it for them with a small deposit. Would probably offer them something to drink also.

I have two places I keep my firearms and my reloaded ammo. Thousands upon thousands of rounds. And currently right now I'm looking at a SBH 44mag, XD45, Arminus 22 pistol, S&W 10, Marlin 60, Marlin 1894 44mag, Marlin 444S, Marlin 1895 45-70, Winchester 70 CSLT, T/C Venture .223. That's just in my bedroom outside the safe. If an officer walked in right now, I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about having those guns and all the ammo out and visible. Because it's about the interaction. That's what sets the stage for how everything is going to go. If I'm nervous and reserved in my answers, the officer might suspect something. But if I'm calm, relaxed, friendly, he/she will be also. Maybe that's the give and take you were referring to. You've heard the saying "You never get a second chance to make a first impression". Well I always try to give LE good first impressions. It just comes down to I have never been uncomfortable around any officer. But I'm not the type of guy that gets uncomfortable around people. We're all just people.

 

[Robert]

I am glad the op had a positive experience with the deputy. Everyone is free to choose how they wish to interact in similar situations. Get a warrant is just as acceptable as come have some tea. Glad it worked out well. We are done here.