G2 R.I.P. Ammo

[DT Guy]

Wasn't Cirillo's stuff actually meant for (as the name suggested) bowling pin shoots, though? I though it was to eliminate those infuriating glancing hits..?


Larry

 

[JRH6856]

Wasn't Cirillo's stuff actually meant for (as the name suggested) bowling pin shoots, though? I though it was to eliminate those infuriating glancing hits..?

Yeah, and from what I can see, this G2 stuff is good for ballons and Jell-O.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yeah, and from what I can see, this G2 stuff is good for ballons and Jell-O.

But you have no experience with it and you are basing this on the limited information available. Fair enough, but you forgot the fruits.

If they actually work as advertised they will be outlawed, like the talons, super vels etc were

Why? How are these any different than other frangible rounds that came apart in segments like Aguila IQ that weren't outlawed?

 

[JRH6856]

But you have no experience with it and you are basing this on the limited information available.

I'm only basing it on the information supplied (I assume) by G2. If I have the wrong impression, they should have done a better job with their presentation. More likely, I am not part of their target market.

 

[Torian]

If they actually work as advertised they will be outlawed, like the talons, super vels etc were, otherwise I could start carrying a smaller caliber. Super vels got me in enough trouble 30 yrs ago. But they worked differently with a primer in the hollow point.
after Reagan got shot,with an explosive round, "or whatever they decided to call it at the time, that was the end of that.

Psst: Black Talon isn't illegal...merely rebranded as the Ranger SXT. Same bullet

 

[tuj]

Wasn't Cirillo's stuff actually meant for (as the name suggested) bowling pin shoots, though? I though it was to eliminate those infuriating glancing hits..?

He designed the bullets to kill.

I asked my buddy to make the nose of the cup point with the sharpest outer rim he could machine. I wanted this sharp outer rim because this was the configuration that penetrated best when striking a hard surface at an oblique angle. The sharp edge on the cup-point nose would bit into the surface when it entered at an angle, whereas the tapered surface of a normal bullet would skid off.

There were his and his partner's daily carry rounds.

Thankfully bullet design has advanced and we have bullets now like the Barnes SDX solid copper bullet that retains almost all of its weight and reliably expands after penetrating a number of different barriers.

 

[silicosys4]

In Cirillo's first shooting, as detailed in his book, he had the round nose lead .38 service loads fail to penetrate in multiple head shots.
He preference from then on was for bullets with a sharp edge so they would penetrate skulls and barriers, and those pin grabbers were the basis for his SD load that was capped with a rounded plastic nose so they would feed reliably.
He was much more concerned with penetration than expansion, from the impression I got. He was also developing a full wadcutter .45acp load that was also capped for reliability in auto loaders, but his unfortunate death put a stop to development.

 

[gym]

That may be true but if you had them in your gun and got spot checked in NYC when they came out. You were likely to be in trouble trying to prove that they were legal.

 

[JRH6856]

Psst: Black Talon isn't illegal...merely rebranded as the Ranger SXT. Same eXact Thing.

Fixed it for you.

 

[tarosean]

Psst: Black Talon isn't illegal...

Actually. The esteemed leaders of San Fransisco banned it last year.

Talk about ineffective worthless laws, banning something that hasnt been around in decades.


http://www.guns.com/2013/04/16/san-franciscos-black-talon-ban-comes-a-little-too-late/

 

[JRH6856]

Actually. The esteemed leaders of San Fransisco banned it last year.

Talk about ineffective worthless laws, banning something that hasnt been around in decades.


http://www.guns.com/2013/04/16/san-franciscos-black-talon-ban-comes-a-little-too-late/

Yeah, but they covered the bases:

"It also bans the sale of any ammo “that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition.” "

 

[Comrade Mike]

Yeah, but they covered the bases:

"It also bans the sale of any ammo “that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition.” "

So..... They banned all hollow points? Black talon wasn't some magic bullet then, and it certainly isn't now. That damn round has more mystique and rumor to it than it deserves.

 

[BigBore44]

If they really used the word "identical", then that law is completely worthless. Because NOTHING has an exact, identical twin. It can be extremely close. But no two things are identical.

 

[silicosys4]

So..... They banned all hollow points? Black talon wasn't some magic bullet then, and it certainly isn't now. That damn round has more mystique and rumor to it than it deserves.

I shot a ruffed grouse twice with a pm40 and black talons last year. Still had to run it down and wring its neck

 

[JRH6856]

If they really used the word "identical", then that law is completely worthless. Because NOTHING has an exact, identical twin. It can be extremely close. But no two things are identical.

What's more, they didn't specify internal, external or terminal ballistics so I would assume that the performance must be identical from primer ignition until the bullet stops moving. That requires a lot of matching data points.

 

[BigBore44]

^^Exactly. In fact, it's is an INFINITE number of variables to calculate. I actually started typing a vary (pun) small list of factors that will all have to be exact. Then after about 30 variables, I realized what a waste of time it was to even attempt such a feat.

 

[tuj]

Well it comes down to how a court would interpret the wording "identical". If you used the same weight and shape bullet, same 'fragmenting' design, same velocity achieved, I would think a lower court might well find against you. But I am not a lawyer.

Cirillo tested the Black Talon in his book and it didn't perform all that well anyway.

 

[Gun Master]

Recipe for Shredded Gelatin

Let's see now. I've got Jell-O, and all the fruits, and my nuts. Hmmm....what else do I need? Oh, I know......I forgot the G2 R.I.P. !

 

[W L Johnson]

Let's see now. I've got Jell-O, and all the fruits, and my nuts. Hmmm....what else do I need? Oh, I know......I forgot the G2 R.I.P. !

At $15 a pop (last gun broker price I saw) I think I'll take out the jello the old fashion way, eat it.

 

[gym]

If the bullet works as advertised, it would be almost impossible for a doctor to remove the fragments from someones internal organs. If a good guy was shot with one it would be a disaster pulling fragments out of livers, Kidneys, spleens etc. That's why I doubt they will be allowed to proceed with selling them to the public.

 

[tuj]

gym: you can get flechette shotgun shells. Certainly that is just as nasty.

 

[gym]

Ye I have several shotguns, but you must agree that most shootings are done by robbers or other criminals with handguns. these bullets just "from the literature" are nasty to work around. removing, like shrapnel.

 

[jerkface11]

At under 6 grains each the pieces won't make it to any organs.

 

[Odd Job]

If the bullet works as advertised, it would be almost impossible for a doctor to remove the fragments from someones internal organs. If a good guy was shot with one it would be a disaster pulling fragments out of livers, Kidneys, spleens etc. That's why I doubt they will be allowed to proceed with selling them to the public.

Bullet fragments are not routinely removed from patients unless they are readily accessible under the skin or if they are encountered by chance at surgery.
Removing bullet fragments only becomes a priority if:

1) The fragment is in a vessel and may cause a vascular incident (such as a cerebral embolism).

2) The fragment is lead and is embedded in a vertebral disc or is in a joint capsule or other place where it is in contact with synovial fluid. Synovial fluid can make lead available for distribution in the blood and ultimately result in plumbism (lead poisoning).

3) The fragment poses a mechanical hazard (such as being embedded in a joint surface).

I suspect in most cases the surgeons won't be digging for R.I.P. fragments.

 

[W L Johnson]

Bullet fragments are not routinely removed from patients unless they are readily accessible under the skin or if they are encountered by chance at surgery.
Removing bullet fragments only becomes a priority if:

1) The fragment is in a vessel and may cause a vascular incident (such as a cerebral embolism).

2) The fragment is lead and is embedded in a vertebral disc or is in a joint capsule or other place where it is in contact with synovial fluid. Synovial fluid can make lead available for distribution in the blood and ultimately result in plumbism (lead poisoning).

3) The fragment poses a mechanical hazard (such as being embedded in a joint surface).

I suspect in most cases the surgeons won't be digging for R.I.P. fragments.

If they perform anywhere near what they're advertising they will, which I seriously doubt, the only digging being done would be with a shovel.