G3 torque

[stubbicatt]

Shooting at the range today with a friend. Brought my PTR91, and he brought both a Socom M1a and a standard M1a. Love those rifles.

We have heard all about how the G3 has a bad recoil. Some people claim it is just excessive in comparison to the other offerings such as the M1a and the FAL.

So today we loaded 'em up, and swapped 'em around and all agreed that the Socom and the PTR91 were approximately the same recoil impulse, and concluded that the muzzle brakes on each of them were really handy for keeping the rifles on target. The nod went to the Socom as just barely perceptibly less recoil. The standard M1a had significantly greater muzzle rise than either of the other two. All rifles were shot from standing and kneeling.

The one thing we all remarked is that the PTR91 seemed to twist in our hands in a clockwise direction. None of us remarked upon this effect from the other two rifles.

The only thing I can imagine would impart torque would be a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction form the rifling spinning the bullet as it traveled the bore. But why this wasn't noticed in the other rifles none of us knows.

Any other ideas?

I'm old, and my friend is older, and neither of us has great eyesight anymore. So his college age son shot the PTR91 at 440 yards and shot 3 shots into about 3 inches at that distance, shooting this ammunition. It was amazing to see. That is one accurate little rifle. The 400 yard sight setting shot a little bit low, however.

Every time I go to the range I learn a little something, today was no different. Been a long time since I shot that rifle. Started with the 22 long rifle conversion kit, and it was just right on the money at maybe 25 yards or so. A great way to ease into this point shooting technique.

The changeover to 308 was relatively quick, and the thing shot to the same point of aim. Just excellent. I learned that shooting is just a whole lot of fun and an educational experience, especially with young people around.

 

[iamkris]

Hmm, interesting.

I have shot my FAL, M1A and a PTR91 side by side. I find that the recoil impulse is "softest" in the FAL and harshest in the PTR91. Very small differences but I've always attributed it to a combination of stock design, method of operation and that massive chunk of steel that is the PTR91 bolt/bolt carrier. I'm sure that's one of those "personal impression" kind of things.



I've never really noticed a difference in "torque" between the rifles. I could tell the difference in torque between a light 9mm handgun and a heavy .45 colt...not in these rifles though.

 

[jrou111]

The torque feeling is due to it launching the brass 40 feet.

 

[stubbicatt]

jrou111 said... The torque feeling is due to it launching the brass 40 feet.

Hm. Never noticed that with the FAL, which throws its brass as far as my rifle does. Nor with any AK which slings it much further. Nor even shooting a Barrett 50. I think you are mistaken. Until I am otherwise convinced, I'm going to rest with the rifling. It is the only explanation that makes sense to me so far, even tho none of us noticed it from the other rifles, which also had rifling.

 

[iamkris]

I think you are mistaken

I think the comment was sarcasm...not a serious explanation.

Anyway, I will agree...the G3 pattern rifles throw brass further than any other rifle (and I own a lot) I've ever seen. Mine easily throws it 25-30 feet. That's why the port buffer was created for HK91s

Your explanation that torque is created by the rifling is correct...there is torque from that (Newton's 3rd Law). However, it shouldn't be anymore than any other rifle. (and I'm glad to hear that your other rifles had rifling!! )

 

[AK103K]

I've owned all three, and never noticed a recoil difference between them.

When it comes to recoil, I think a lot of the difference is in what the person shooting the gun is used to. These days, the 5.56 is now an old man compared to the first time I shot one, and we thought they were like shooting a noisy .22's. Then again, we learned on old '03's, K98's, M1's etc. These days, for many, the 5.56 is the big round learned on. This I think is a big reason for many of the complaints.

Another issue is the stock designs. The shape of the HK's A2 stocks are pretty narrow in cross section compared to some of other rifles. If you dont shoulder the rifle properly, your going to know your shooting it. That actually goes for any of them, but I think more so the HK's. If your shooting one of their A3 stocks on a 91/G3, it can wear on you pretty quick, regardless of your experiences.

I always favored the 91's to most of the others. They have the best combat sights of any rifle of their type going, and up until recently, were the easiest to get a quick release, zero holding optic on a stock gun. They were also very easily reconfigured compared to most others.

 

[Maverick223]

I'm glad to hear that your other rifles had rifling!

You know...rifles without rifling are getting really hard to find nowdays. And I agree a PTR-91/G3 will sling brass at least 20ft., and if it doesn't something is wrong with it. The G3 kills from one end and wounds from the side.

Oh, and to answer the original question...the torque should be from the rifling, and the recoil is slightly more than most other semi. 7.62 rifles that I have shot (stil less than a .308 bolt gun IMO). Recoil is NOT bad.

 

[Maverick223]

I wonder if anyone has experience with the HK 'heavy buffer' available on some HK models. Does it make a difference?

I don't think it's a big deal for recoil (but I don't think the recoil is bad anyway), but it does a great job of keeping the gun from chewing up brass. I don't remember the brand of the buffer, and have heard some have reliability issues, this one worked great.

 

[stubbicatt]

Snoopy said... HK recoil.
I wonder if anyone has experience with the HK 'heavy buffer' available on some HK models. Does it make a difference?

My Magpul stock has the heavy buffer in it. It sort of smoothes the recoil out somewhat.



The standard buffer works just fine for the purposes one has a buffer... to decelerate the bolt/carrier assembly. If it didn't, you would witness dimples in your receiver rails.

Maverick223 says... and the recoil is slightly more than most other semi. 7.62 rifles that I have shot

I respect your experience. Our informal testing today arrived at a different conclusion. Today I used a standard G3 stock and buffer. All worked as it should, and we determined that the recoil was on a par with the M1a socom, with its muzzle brake.

Anyhow. Today was a great day at the range. The sights on that PTR91 are just magnificent, excellent for this sort of learning point shooting.