Game ranches & Ethical Hunting - What's your take?

[Art Eatman]

The King Ranch has had nilghai on it for decades. Somewhere north of 10,000, last I read.

Aoudad are feral, down in this desert country, as well as up in Jeff Davis County. And now the 300,000-acre 02 ranch has a beginning Oryx herd of twenty-some.

The Texas desert bighorn sheep "bring back" program has grown by over a thousand animals in these last ten years; a fair number, now, on private lands from straying away from state tracts.

I dunno. I have my preferences as to how I like to hunt, but I'd feel like an idiot to impose my notions on somebody else. They're legal? I'm done worrying about them. Not my bidness.

 

[Cob]

I have always maintained a high degree of respect for landowers, especially ones that were able to pull off something that seemed difficult and make it work for them while maintaining the land in forestry, agricultural, or undeveloped state.
I would not say or post anything dis-respectful on a public forum to undermean their goals, and have never had a problem with the game ranches, regardles of type. hunts in FL are against the law in pens less than 300 acres in size, and many are much larger. State WL agencies give them strict ruels to follow...although rebels seem common in this industry.

I was able to take a tour of the ranch with the elk in the picture, with just a telephone call, and saw some animals i had never seen before in this area, including blackbuck antelope, elk, and more common stuff including axis & fallow deer. it was really better than a vist to the zoo, and Mr. Flower's, the owner was happy to show the operation in person. they offer quail hunts, and bird shooting as well:

http://www.georgiaquailhunts.com/Destinations/SouthWind_Whitetails/
- i would not hunt an elk in confinement, for me it causes an ethical dilemma. As i mentioned, i'm planning an elk hunt this fall, and would rather drive 3,000 + miles to find them in their natural habitat, with fairchase as an element.

thanks for posting your opinions on the subject. this subject caused some controversial thoughts in my own mind, so wanted to get a better census of the overal scope of opinions.

 

[suzukisam]

ironclad- dude we are spoiled. northern MO is deer heaven. I shot a "small" 8 point this year. the fact that my deer is considered small is what I love about this area. It had a big body and was only a couple years old. nice thick rack... but it was "small".. only an eight.. my dad shot a 14 last year just a few miles up the road!

to stick to topic, whitetails in this to be fenced would be a tragedy. to be AI, or ordered from another area.. we got it too good.. but in other area or here with different species.. it's kinda whatever..

I see no difference with me going to the butcher and selecting the live hog I want, than I do shooting elk in a pen.. again just don't blow smoke up my back side like you spent 9 days stalking Sasquatch and it paid off..

shoot Sasquatch in a pen or anywhere else and you got my attention

 

[Rembrandt]

...."I would rather take a chance on a free ranging animal in another state 3,000 miles away than kill the same animal 1/4 mile down the road, without a sporting chance......I understand the economics, the reasoning. but ethically unsound."

How much of a "sporting chance" did your last batch of bar coded beef from the supermarket have? You're over thinking this...it's a commercial food source, whether raised in a pen or in the feedlot....nothing more complicated than that.

 

[Ironclad]

How much of a "sporting chance" did your last batch of bar coded beef from the supermarket have? You're over thinking this...it's a commercial food source, whether raised in a pen or in the feedlot....nothing more complicated than that.

It's a little more complicated than that. When is the last time you hung the head of the steer your beef came from on the wall and pretended that killing it was some great accomplishment? I don't guess its really "wrong" just a little silly.

to stick to topic, whitetails in this to be fenced would be a tragedy. to be AI, or ordered from another area.. we got it too good.. but in other area or here with different species.. it's kinda whatever..

That's true. All the folks who like a sure deal oughta come hunt whitetails on conservation land here in Missouri. I guarantee its cheaper than any canned hunt and without that 'tinny' flavor. Plus, you might prevent somebody's car from getting totaled. But if you come, please shoot a doe - shooting bucks doesn't effect the population as much in the long run.

 

[jjjjeremy]

Sporting aside, it's interesting to note that many species have been saved from endangerment or extinction through canned hunts. Once there is a price on an animal's head, there is an incentive to make more of them than you kill.

 

[Davek1977]

I'd think that shooting a fenced deer or elk and pretending its an actual hunt is somehting no one who has actually been on a real hunt could ever consider remotely satisfying....or at least I'd hope so. However, there are those that place the emphasis on the trop[hy, not the hunt, on the end result, and not what it took to get there. These sorts of hunts are fine for that sort of person.....but do me a favor, and don't call it hunting, because a real hunt involves the principal of fair chase. Fences, regardless of pen size, artificiality limit movement, eliminating that aspect.

I've got friends and relatives who hunt a lot and they seem to keep a lot of the heads around. I'd rather not, as it seems to be just a reminder that I had to kill something in order to eat it

I'm not a "trophy hunter" but I do have mounts on the wall. I personally have no remorse or sorrow about being an ACTIVE part of the food chain, or seeing one of the mounts and being reminded of the hunt, or the kill that completed it. I guess I don't understand the mindset of "its ok to eat meat, so long as I don't have to think about it or realize its a dead animal I'm eating" which seems to almost be what you are saying unless i grossly misinterpreted what you wrote.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Years ago, I was on a "fair chase" hunt in New Mexico..The year that someone decided that safety yellow was more visible in the field than safety orange.
I was sitting on the side of a mountain, directly across from a patch of mountain that had experienced a burn. By my count, there were probably 20+ hunters sitting on that side and with their yellow/orange outfits; they stood out like raisins on a cookie..
Someone managed to frighten a doe that ran across the burn..the war was on! Every hunter fired at least one shot on the running doe and not a single one managed a hit.
In those days, it was legal to kill a fawn in N.M. I saw one fawn hanging from a meat pole.
I had a problem trying to find a boulder big enough to get behind when the shooting started
Thats why I prefer to hunt with people I know and their position when I am about to shoot.

P.R.

 

[Cob]

How much of a "sporting chance" did your last batch of bar coded beef from the supermarket have? You're over thinking this...it's a commercial food source, whether raised in a pen or in the feedlot....nothing more complicated than that.

Man.. i worked as a butcher for 6 years, and have ran a knife or band saw blade thru hundreds of thousands of pounds of red, pink, and white meat...then stuck that bar-code on a sticker on the nice neat packaging.

For me it's not completely about the shooting or killing, it's about the chase. I am content to spend my time in the woods without ever pulling a trigger, and personally love feeling & being a part of the natural environment.
The game ranches detract a bit from "the chase part of it" that i love the most, I could buy a steer locallly grown much cheaper than i could a pen raised elk, and if it were simply about the meat, then that is what i would do.

It's a little more complicated than that...

 

[joeq]

Most high fenced game ranches in Texas are very large pieces of property. I don't consider 1000 acres or more a "canned" hunt. Most of these hunts are for exotic species anyway. Last I checked I couldn't afford to take an African safari so hunting these animals in their natural habitat isn't going to happen for me. As a land surveyor in Texas I have been on a ton of these huge ranches. You can go days without seeing any game. When the properties are big enough there is no question that the animals are wild. You don't walk up with a hand full of feed and take a head shot with your 9mm. Keep in mind that in Texas there is almost zero public land so a lot of people have no option but to pay for this type of hunt unless they drive to another state.

 

[jmr40]

I think it is a personal decision. Some guys choose to hunt with a muzzle loader, or longbow exclusively. It is not the way I'd prefer to hunt, but have no problem with it being legal and allowing others to do so if they choose.

I prefer to pack for miles into wilderness areas to hunt animals that rarely see humans. I get no personal satisfaction from even hunting on a 100 acre farm with no fence and seeing deer come to food plots that were planted just to draw in the deer. But I sometimes do just to make sure I get a small doe for the meat. I don't really consider it hunting though. Even that is grocery shopping to me. I get more satisfaction from a 5 day pack hunt where I come home empty handed.

 

[CoRoMo]

There isn't anything in this world like the feeling I get when I best an elk, in their wide open habitat. They own the place and they are lightyears ahead of me in regards to being prepared for our encounter. They prevail in most all of these encounters, but when I succeed, I get a high that keeps me coming back every season.

But I'm really only out there for meat.

If the ranch to the west of my spot would let me hunt for no more than I spend hunting on the public land, I'd certainly go get my meat from their elk herd. Maybe not every season, but at least one of the two that I hunt every year. That feeling of excitement is just too addicting to forever trade it away in exchange for easy meat.

 

[rajb123]

I've hunted wild game for +30 years. Last February, I participated in a "put-and-take" quail hunt in SC for the first time. I enjoyed the hunt but it was not the same as hunting wild birds.

I don't believe I would enjoy hunting "put-and-take" big game behind fenses as these animals are not really wild IMO.

I don't beleive we should encourage these hunts but I don;t think they should be outlawed either. We need more, not less, hunters in the USA.

 

[Art Eatman]

"I'd think that shooting a fenced deer or elk and pretending its an actual hunt is somehting no one who has actually been on a real hunt could ever consider remotely satisfying."

Davek, consider: If the fenced area is much greater than the usual roaming/feeding area of a deer or elk, does the fence really matter? Granted, in the Rockies, elk migrate. SFAIK, the feral elk of Texas do not. As I said before, a whitetail restricts himself to about a section; it seems to me that 10,000 acres which is high-fenced is quite fair to both deer and hunter.

Next question: Should hunting be "no guides", limited only to those with expertise? Should hunting be limited to poor people who can't afford high-dollar hunts? Should those with large billfolds and limited time be denied any sort of hunting opportunity?

Is there something morally wrong in having what is essentially a full-service motel as a hunt camp on a high-dollar hunting ranch? Is hunting moral ONLY if one is "roughing it"?

Again: Just because something is not my style does not justify my bad-mouthing it.

 

[Davek1977]

High fences restrict movement, which eliminates the aspect of fair chase imo. You can argue for or against such hunts, but, to me, restricted movment=confinement. A whitetail may spend the vast majority oif his or her life in a certain area, but when pressured, WILL leave the area....fences eliminate part of the fight or flight option.

AS for guides...never been on a guided hunt, but having "help" or guidence" doesn't ELIMINATE the animal's options for survival...they simply INCREASE yours...same with high dollar hunts in game rich, no fence areas. My biggest problem is the restriction of an animal's natural defense, in this case flight.

 

[CoRoMo]

High fences restrict movement... restricted movment=confinement.

So do oceans. Hunt on one of the Alaskan islands and you are doing much the same.

 

[Davek1977]

I see a difference in INCREASING ones odds for success and DECREASING the animal's options. Good equipment, guides, and whatnot do not control or restrict animal behavior, where I certainly don't feel the same about fences

 

[j2crows]

I personally would never hunt a game ranch. Just the way I feel. So...If you are hunting a game ranch where you know the game is within a certain area, is that hunting?

 

[d2wing]

Only if they are in a pen Kodiak. I have nothing against game farms but I do object to game farm throphies in any record books. It's not the same as fair chase. They are good practice for the real thing sometimes and some hunters have little choice. I like being in the wild and wouldn't trade the thrill of hunting down a wild animal for any size penned one. I don't get the fun in shooting livestock. But I'm not here to judge fellow hunters.

 

[rajb123]

I have traveled the world extensively. In most places, hunting is very restricted to wealthy land owners or wealthy folks who pay for high priced guided hunts.

We are lucky in the USA becasue we have lots of public land that can be hunted.

Elk really do not belong in Florida or Texas and if they were to escape the high fenses, they would probably have an adverse impact on the natural game - like deer. I suppose this is similar to the farm hogs that escaped decades ago and now ruin lots of habitat.

I know many hunters who love to hunt fensed land and put-and-take animals in exchange for harvest fees. It is not for me, however.

Should it be out-lawed?

I don't know - maybe.

I tend to think "fensed" hunts give hunters a bad reputation in non-hunter's eyes and those who that prefer politically correct views on so-called amimial rights.

Is this different from fishing in lakes and streams that stocked with fish? ....well - YES.

 

[Remo223]

Farm raised game animals are not wild animals. THey are livestock. There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with killing and eating livestock.

 

[rajb123]

I saw a TV hunt for penned American Buffs. It was pretty SICK in my view. Yeh, it is OK to harvest livestock and these penned buffalo were exactly that....

...but it definately was NOT sportmenship, however. American Buffs don't run away much and shooting penned animals that don't flee humans is not my idea of a rewarding hunt.

The hunter was very proud to show off his kill and it was brought back to the barn for meat chopping in a trackor bucket. I thought to myself, "this is what gives hunter's a bad reputation."

 

[Ironclad]

This is semi - related. The Missouri Department of Conservation is planning on stocking elk in a 340 square mile area in southern MO. This obviously won't be fenced, but MDC says the elks range will be "limited to the restoration zone". I am kind of doubting this, but if they are, do you think that this would be an ethical hunt?

http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/animal-management/elk-restoration

 

[KodiakBeer]

Next question: Should hunting be "no guides", limited only to those with expertise? Should hunting be limited to poor people who can't afford high-dollar hunts? Should those with large billfolds and limited time be denied any sort of hunting opportunity?

Art, I'm not a "trophy hunter" so I really have no stake in this, but consider; a guy sits in a freezing Minnesota tamarack swamp from dawn to dusk every November for twenty years to take that one B&C buck. Another guy pays a guide to lead him to some trophy buck in another part of the country. Both of them hang the mounts on their wall.

To me, the first example is a trophy and the other is just a decorative ornament.

I don't think hunting with guides or on game ranches or over feeders is immoral or unethical, but it's not on the same playing field as going out and finding, stalking and killing an animal on your own.

If it was just about the meat, there would be no controversy. A trophy is something else. You don't get trophies for paying Tiger Woods to play the local golf tournament in your name. And you shouldn't consider an animal you didn't find and take all by yourself a trophy either.

 

[Remo223]

I guess I'd first have to give a * about trophies before I cared one bit about your argument.