Cob
Member
This is the point. State laws vary... Certain unlawful individuals commonly flirt with this "gray area" and have found what i'll refer to as "loop holes" in the system.
Game ranches & Ethical Hunting - What's your take?
- Thread starter Cob
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This is the point. State laws vary... Certain unlawful individuals commonly flirt with this "gray area" and have found what i'll refer to as "loop holes" in the system.
oneounceload
member
None of the tree-stand hunters have answered my question - it seems that might cross the line because these folks aren't as rich as the canned hunt folks.............
Remember when you watch those "hunting" shows on TV - most of those are staged to some degree
Remember when you watch those "hunting" shows on TV - most of those are staged to some degree
oneounceload- I hunt treestands in the midwest but not over bait, so I may not be fully qualified to answer your question. I'm not into bait hunting in general, however I feel that there are some exceptions to the rule.
first..Hogs and coyotes. It in no way offends me that people use trickery to take either of the animals..they are a nuisance.
second.. in areas where a given game species is not very heavy and to even bait one will not ensure killing it, than I believe there is an element of "hunting" involved in figuring out where bait would even bring that animal in. and then it would be a toss up as to whether it even worked. this would fall into the same catagory as trapping. the sport is in finding the trails or habitate, which may be a task all on it's own.
but again I do not like the idea of a salt spreader and corn and 50 game animals all flocking out of the woods for dinner.. it's like pavlov's deer hunt! drive a truck and they salivate!
I also don't like a barrel full of jelly donuts and a dead bear.. but to each his own, I don't find it immoral, just not super fun..
first..Hogs and coyotes. It in no way offends me that people use trickery to take either of the animals..they are a nuisance.
second.. in areas where a given game species is not very heavy and to even bait one will not ensure killing it, than I believe there is an element of "hunting" involved in figuring out where bait would even bring that animal in. and then it would be a toss up as to whether it even worked. this would fall into the same catagory as trapping. the sport is in finding the trails or habitate, which may be a task all on it's own.
but again I do not like the idea of a salt spreader and corn and 50 game animals all flocking out of the woods for dinner.. it's like pavlov's deer hunt! drive a truck and they salivate!
I also don't like a barrel full of jelly donuts and a dead bear.. but to each his own, I don't find it immoral, just not super fun..
I have always held alot of reservations about high fenced hunting. A good friend of mine has been visiting a ranch in Texas at least twice a year for years now. I have always been invited to come along and last September I finally gave in. The ranch we hunted Sweet Water Creek I must admit was great. It is bowhunting only and covers roughly 10,000 acres around Decature TX. We hunted a 2500 acre section with a perimeter fence. I ended up taking a nice Auodad and one hog. The 7 guys who went down only three of us scored a animal. I set my own stand and saw several animals but made the two kills from the ranches stands. Bottom line 4 days 2500 acres you don't have enough time to scout well enough.
In fact my buddy Brian who has made the trip 12 times in 8 years now has taken 5 animals. We hunted hard and were treated like kings. 4 days hunting with the oportunity to take 2 hogs and one horned animal ran $1,100. Which includes lodging and meals. These guys are trying to cater towards working folks who want a nice time but can't afford some of the high end outfitters. I have already booked my trip for this coming September. I saw plenty of critters but not the one I wanted or i saw a ton of Whitetails that were not in season yet. Most of the animals on this ranch are born there free ranging. This year I am going down to help manage the herd. We have been asked to shoot fallow does and red deer cows if possible. I don't care about the horns and Red Deer is comparable to elk in taste. Since my fork can't cut antlers I am only happy to help out.
Now there is another place her in Kansas that offers elk hunts. The whole place is 60 acres with knee high grass and lets you hunt with a rifle. I hate to say it but 60 acres with a .300 win mag. I could cover corner post to corner post and not even have to think about elevation adjustments. There is a huge diffrence between these two types of operations.
In fact my buddy Brian who has made the trip 12 times in 8 years now has taken 5 animals. We hunted hard and were treated like kings. 4 days hunting with the oportunity to take 2 hogs and one horned animal ran $1,100. Which includes lodging and meals. These guys are trying to cater towards working folks who want a nice time but can't afford some of the high end outfitters. I have already booked my trip for this coming September. I saw plenty of critters but not the one I wanted or i saw a ton of Whitetails that were not in season yet. Most of the animals on this ranch are born there free ranging. This year I am going down to help manage the herd. We have been asked to shoot fallow does and red deer cows if possible. I don't care about the horns and Red Deer is comparable to elk in taste. Since my fork can't cut antlers I am only happy to help out.
Now there is another place her in Kansas that offers elk hunts. The whole place is 60 acres with knee high grass and lets you hunt with a rifle. I hate to say it but 60 acres with a .300 win mag. I could cover corner post to corner post and not even have to think about elevation adjustments. There is a huge diffrence between these two types of operations.
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I don't think canned hunts are more ethically wrong than raising cattle, but I also don't think that there is any more pride in killing a fenced animal than there is in slaughtering a cow.
Maybe the cattle ranchers should start having guided hunts where you can shoot their steers, and then have one of their farm hands cut off the horns for you and haul the animal to the butcher to be processed for you. It would probably up their price per pound.
I'm not really huge on trophies to begin with, but I would actually be embarrassed to have a head from a canned hunt on my wall.
Maybe the cattle ranchers should start having guided hunts where you can shoot their steers, and then have one of their farm hands cut off the horns for you and haul the animal to the butcher to be processed for you. It would probably up their price per pound.
I'm not really huge on trophies to begin with, but I would actually be embarrassed to have a head from a canned hunt on my wall.
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Daveboone
Member
I dont have a problem with others shooting game behind a high fence...but dont call it hunting. As reproduction guns and toys nowadays have to have a pink barrel in alot of areas, I think high fence game also should be required to have permanently dyed pink antlers (or horns).
Cob
Member
I have visited multiple ranches, some of which routinely hold "sportsman's days" with pheasant shoots,(that's another animal that ain't from florida), pen-raised quail shoots (they are big heavy birds), quality whitetailed deer hunts, with racks common over 160", and exceptional trophies over 250 inches, and an assortment of exotics.
My reason for being at each place has always been for a separate reason other than hunting, though I am an avid hunter, and let's face it - there just are not many places where you can watch this type of game at close range, without them being spooked...i enjoy inspecting the timber on some of the places from time to time for that very reason.
I have fed whitetail does, and one 10 - point carrots out of my hand, on 2.5 acres. That owner does not allow hunting, but sells the whitetails to bigger game ranches where they are sold for slaughter at prices well above the average price of beef,
I have counted 13 high fence operations go into business in Suwannee Co., FL in the past 3 years. the biggest is 5000 acres, some are 1000 acres, some are only a couple hundred. Is this type of system growing elsewhere as well?
And is public sentiment towards these type of operations changing?
My reason for being at each place has always been for a separate reason other than hunting, though I am an avid hunter, and let's face it - there just are not many places where you can watch this type of game at close range, without them being spooked...i enjoy inspecting the timber on some of the places from time to time for that very reason.
I have fed whitetail does, and one 10 - point carrots out of my hand, on 2.5 acres. That owner does not allow hunting, but sells the whitetails to bigger game ranches where they are sold for slaughter at prices well above the average price of beef,
I have counted 13 high fence operations go into business in Suwannee Co., FL in the past 3 years. the biggest is 5000 acres, some are 1000 acres, some are only a couple hundred. Is this type of system growing elsewhere as well?
And is public sentiment towards these type of operations changing?
Cob
Member
I think that what they have done is double the height of the fence, stocked the ranch with something other than cows, and took a different marketing approach.
This marketing approach is what is changing public sentiment. And you are right - the pink grips, black rifle craze, "zombie preparation" is going hand and hand with it.
This marketing approach is what is changing public sentiment. And you are right - the pink grips, black rifle craze, "zombie preparation" is going hand and hand with it.
Granted I would much rather head to Colorado and hunt elk. The fact is I cannot for the same money. We hunt alot but when we are out its all about getting the kids a deer or getting the kids a turkey. Don't get me wrong there is nothing in the world I would rather do than hunt with my kids. I also do several youth hunts every year and some guide work in between. You get so worked up with trying to get your kids a animal or your buddies kid, or you client. Hunting becomes almost like a job.
This become my selfish time. 4 days I get to hunt and not worry about disapointing anyone. I would not trade my life with anyone I am truley blessed in sharing the outdoors with people who matter to me. Just every now and then daddy needs to get out and enjoy the outdoors all by himself.
This way I can have a nice relaxed hunt without spending a fortune doing it.
This become my selfish time. 4 days I get to hunt and not worry about disapointing anyone. I would not trade my life with anyone I am truley blessed in sharing the outdoors with people who matter to me. Just every now and then daddy needs to get out and enjoy the outdoors all by himself.
This way I can have a nice relaxed hunt without spending a fortune doing it.
Cranky CJ
Member
Those of us that have spent a full week getting up at 4am to be in "the spot" before sunrise and going until dark- to try and find an elk in the wild, only to come up dry at weeks end, wouldn't call this hunting.
Everybody has their style. This wouldn't be mine and I don't call it hunting. If it is your style then hey to each their own. But, the pink antler comment holds some validity.
Everybody has their style. This wouldn't be mine and I don't call it hunting. If it is your style then hey to each their own. But, the pink antler comment holds some validity.
wankerjake
Member
That about sums it up for me.
gatorjames85
Member
I don't have a problem with landowners doing it to make money, but any so called "hunter" that feels a sense of accomplishment from a high-fenced hunt has a very different set of ethics than I.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
This is not the first time this subject has been beat on, here. But, as usual, there's a lot of misunderstanding.
A "canned hunt" is where a game animal is confined to an area so small that it cannot escape a hunter. Okay? That has zilch to do with 99% of the high-fence hunting ranches.
For a high percentage of the high-fence ranch, the fence is to keep other deer OUT. Improved pasture or a re-growth of native grasses, herbs and forbs is attractive to other deer besides the residents, and can wind up with over-use of the habitat.
The majority of such ranches in Texas are for whitetail. A whitetail basically lives in--is imprinted by--about a section of land. 640 acres. The hunting pastures on such ranches are commonly well above a thousand acres. Since many are mixed-use with cattle, the interior fencing of a 10K or 20K ranch is commonly "normal" height and are easily jumped by a deer.
Next is the typical vegetation: Beaucoup brush. In much of it, a deer would have to stand on his hind legs and wave in order to be seen. IOW, just finding a deer can be a serious challenge, even within small areas in a pasture.
For the walking hunters among us: How many acres of brushy country do you think you can work out and really hunt, in a day? I'm not talking about open grassland country.
I've hunted in the Appalachicola River bottomland below Blountstown, FL, and sitting is far more practical than walking, although skillful sneaky-snaking can be productive. Same in timber country east of Tallahassee. Same behind my wife's house on the upper Ochlocknee River in Jawgia. But I'm a helluva lot better at sneaky-snaking than most folks, since I grew up doing just that from about age six or seven.
Terlingua? Ehhh...Ten to twelve miles in a day has been common. My favorite quail-hunt trek is three miles, one way. Here, if you can't kill a running deer at 300 or 400 yards, you may well not get another chance, all season.
Bottom line? Don't form an opinion when the knowledge isn't there. There is no such thing as "One size fits all," in what's right and proper in hunting.
A "canned hunt" is where a game animal is confined to an area so small that it cannot escape a hunter. Okay? That has zilch to do with 99% of the high-fence hunting ranches.
For a high percentage of the high-fence ranch, the fence is to keep other deer OUT. Improved pasture or a re-growth of native grasses, herbs and forbs is attractive to other deer besides the residents, and can wind up with over-use of the habitat.
The majority of such ranches in Texas are for whitetail. A whitetail basically lives in--is imprinted by--about a section of land. 640 acres. The hunting pastures on such ranches are commonly well above a thousand acres. Since many are mixed-use with cattle, the interior fencing of a 10K or 20K ranch is commonly "normal" height and are easily jumped by a deer.
Next is the typical vegetation: Beaucoup brush. In much of it, a deer would have to stand on his hind legs and wave in order to be seen. IOW, just finding a deer can be a serious challenge, even within small areas in a pasture.
For the walking hunters among us: How many acres of brushy country do you think you can work out and really hunt, in a day? I'm not talking about open grassland country.
I've hunted in the Appalachicola River bottomland below Blountstown, FL, and sitting is far more practical than walking, although skillful sneaky-snaking can be productive. Same in timber country east of Tallahassee. Same behind my wife's house on the upper Ochlocknee River in Jawgia. But I'm a helluva lot better at sneaky-snaking than most folks, since I grew up doing just that from about age six or seven.
Terlingua? Ehhh...Ten to twelve miles in a day has been common. My favorite quail-hunt trek is three miles, one way. Here, if you can't kill a running deer at 300 or 400 yards, you may well not get another chance, all season.
Bottom line? Don't form an opinion when the knowledge isn't there. There is no such thing as "One size fits all," in what's right and proper in hunting.
Pistol Ranch
Member
Ethics
My ranch is low-fenced. I hunt from an elevated blind and use feeders.
In a single day, from one blind, I have seen a Road-runner, A grey Fox, Jackrabbits,a covey of blue quail, a couple of cottontails, a racoon, a green jay, a flock of turkeys,15 does and 5 shootable bucks.
I know where each hunter is on the ranch and what direction they are liable to shoot.
I do not have to worry about some amateur, camo-clad, idiot stumbling through my place disturbing every game animal within hearing distance.
To load my feeders, I have to climb 12' up a ladder carrying a 50# bags of corn. You might try that when you reach age 75.
To the people with "ethics" problems corncerning the use of deer feeders, consider this a different perspective on the subject,,
P.R.
My ranch is low-fenced. I hunt from an elevated blind and use feeders.
In a single day, from one blind, I have seen a Road-runner, A grey Fox, Jackrabbits,a covey of blue quail, a couple of cottontails, a racoon, a green jay, a flock of turkeys,15 does and 5 shootable bucks.
I know where each hunter is on the ranch and what direction they are liable to shoot.
I do not have to worry about some amateur, camo-clad, idiot stumbling through my place disturbing every game animal within hearing distance.
To load my feeders, I have to climb 12' up a ladder carrying a 50# bags of corn. You might try that when you reach age 75.
To the people with "ethics" problems corncerning the use of deer feeders, consider this a different perspective on the subject,,
P.R.
FLAvalanche
Member
Doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me more is seeing "free range" chicken at the grocery store.
When was the last time you saw chickens by the thousands just roaming around the country side?
When was the last time you saw chickens by the thousands just roaming around the country side?
Bernie Lomax
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chas08
Member
On a "Free Range" chicken ranch (farm) not to far from Garfield,Tx. Yes, they do exist.
T.R.
Member
Game Ranches have done more to SAVE animals from becoming extinct than zoos. Here are just a few examples of animals that are THRIVING within USA and other nations as well:
- Pere David deer: extinct in native lands of China
- Eld's deer: almost extinct in native India
- Scimitar horned oryx: considered extinct within native lands of north Africa
- Addax: critically endangered within native lands of north Africa
- Barbary sheep (aoudad) : very limited hunting in native lands of Algeria and Morocco. Thriving non-fenced populations can be hunted in Spain, Texas, and New Mexico.
- Axis deer: very limited hunting in native lands of India & Ceylon
Before condemning hunting ranches, one should ponder why Ranchers raise healthy populations of these exotic animals and their positive impacts upon conservation.
I've enjoyed myself on challenging hunts for red stag within USA. But I'm doubtful if I could ever afford to hunt these amazing animals within their native habitats of eastern & central Europe. Red stags are smaller than elk but larger than mule deer and great fun to stalk!!
TR
- Pere David deer: extinct in native lands of China
- Eld's deer: almost extinct in native India
- Scimitar horned oryx: considered extinct within native lands of north Africa
- Addax: critically endangered within native lands of north Africa
- Barbary sheep (aoudad) : very limited hunting in native lands of Algeria and Morocco. Thriving non-fenced populations can be hunted in Spain, Texas, and New Mexico.
- Axis deer: very limited hunting in native lands of India & Ceylon
Before condemning hunting ranches, one should ponder why Ranchers raise healthy populations of these exotic animals and their positive impacts upon conservation.
I've enjoyed myself on challenging hunts for red stag within USA. But I'm doubtful if I could ever afford to hunt these amazing animals within their native habitats of eastern & central Europe. Red stags are smaller than elk but larger than mule deer and great fun to stalk!!
TR
Pere David deer
Red stag
kinda of like art said there are a lot of flavors depending on where you are... one size won't fit all.. now I'm in the midwest, and hunt northern missouri, and if you can't get a deer without baiting one here you need to just go buy a minivan and drive the highway for about an hour...you'll get one.. they are everywhere. as a general rule they are like squirrels.. and big nice deer too.. not those things that look like anorexic Labradors, that some of you have. I shot a less than a year old deer this season that I could haul out on my shoulders(I can here the sneers), but I think he might have been a trophy in some places. If you HAVE to bait 'em here you need to put a little more effort into it. however I've seen places where baiting wouldn't hardly bring 'em in. so it depends on where you are as whether you lazy man hunting
Suzukisam, you aren't too far from me. The biggest buck I've ever killed was with my truck on MO highway 7 the night before opening weekend.
This season I deer hunted for a total of 15 hours or so and I saw 7 deer. Mostly does but one pretty decent size 6-pointer (illegal in MO). Ended up with a real fat doe, and had 2 more does walk within 25 yards while I was field dressing her. They lived for next year though because I am woefully short on freezer space.
This was on our old 160 acre homestead farm with no bait, no licks, and no game cameras or scouting. I can't even imagine what it would be like to hunt them over bait around here. You could probably just close your eyes, spin around, and randomly pull the trigger and figure on hittin one.
This season I deer hunted for a total of 15 hours or so and I saw 7 deer. Mostly does but one pretty decent size 6-pointer (illegal in MO). Ended up with a real fat doe, and had 2 more does walk within 25 yards while I was field dressing her. They lived for next year though because I am woefully short on freezer space.
This was on our old 160 acre homestead farm with no bait, no licks, and no game cameras or scouting. I can't even imagine what it would be like to hunt them over bait around here. You could probably just close your eyes, spin around, and randomly pull the trigger and figure on hittin one.
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