Garand reloading question

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54 Dodge

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I am experiencing primer movement on some reloaded 30-06 ammo for my M1 Garand. I am using CCI #34 primers, swaged primer pockets on LC 68 and LC69 once fired brass that has been wet tumbled ie; clean primer pockets, small base sized. 150 gr. fmj flat base bullets, 20 rds loaded with IMR 4895 @47.5 gr. primers hand seated below pocket. Experienced 2 primers that moved to approx. .001 to .002 above case head. Next load all same except powder charge was 48 gr., had same primer movement. Read numerous articles about loads and primers etc. and all appear to say that I'm not loading "hot" enough. BTW not using the same pieces of brass for each reload test. Also, cases are trimmed to length and coal is within spec. Cases are crimped with Dillon crimp die. Using a Dillon XL650 press. All cases were presized with RCBS small base dies. Powder drop variance .1 to .2gr. per load, measured after each drop. I did not record which cases had more or less powder vs primer movement. Ideas? I have read here that 47.5 IMR 4895 was a good load with CCI#34 and I know nothing is chiseled in stone and your mileage may vary etc. Just looking for the next bit of experience from someone with more or different than mine. Didn't want to start pushing toward 49gr. IMR 4895 without others thoughts. Chamber headspace on my Garand is about 1/2 close on No Go. TE is approx. 3. is a good shooter with milsurp LC. I'm not trying to be a match shooter, just safe.
Thanks
 
Primers (reloaded ones) always back out a few thousandths when rounds fire. If peak pressure is too low, the case back half won't stretch back enough to press its head against the bolt face and seat the primer flush with the case head. Happens all the time with lots of reduced loads. I've seen primers backed out near .010" with loads more than 10% below max.

Load a couple grains more powder.
 
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I am experiencing primer movement on some reloaded 30-06 ammo for my M1 Garand. . 150 gr. fmj flat base bullets, 20 rds loaded with IMR 4895 @47.5 gr. primers hand seated below pocket. Experienced 2 primers that moved to approx. .001 to .002 above case head. Next load all same except powder charge was 48 gr., had same primer movement.

Shoot 'em; you're good. 47 gr. 4895 is not a light load behind a 150 gr. bullet w/LC brass, in fact it was a favorite load of many Garand match shooters. Behind a 150 gr. SMK it is very close to US M2 Ball ammo and same load behind a 168 gr. MK duplicates M72 Match ammo.

Regards,
hps
 
That is very little movement of the primer, it wouldn't worry me. Is this once fired brass? Is possible the primer pockets are stretched and allowing the primers to move?
 
The normal process that happens when a cartridge is fired is for the primer to move to the rear and unseat itself as the pressures begin to rise, as the pressure begins to increase the case expands radially and sticks to the chamber walls, then the case starts to stretch in both directions. The head will stretch until it contacts the bolt face, re-seating the primer as it does. If the pressure never reaches the proper level then the head wont stretch enough to re-seat the primer.

Hopefully I wont get lectured about how useless my software is but QuickLoad predicts around 41,000 PSI for max chamber pressure with that load so you can try pushing it up a bit and see if your primers seem to be re-seated.
 
Don't ignore this. It can allow gas to escape cutting you bolt face and firing pin hole. I would check the gas piston and Op Rods on your Garand. I would also run a Go No Go head space gauge on the chamber.
 
.001-.002" is not a big concern by itself. A light load and average headspacing in a "Garand" rifle can account for that. As long as your not oversizing your brass and leaving too much slop and your chamber headspacing is within spec as you suggest, then tick that load up and carry on.

Just make sure your once fired brass was actually "once fired" and keep a check on the brass for "end of life" signs.
 
Hmmm, I wouldn't consider 48 grains of IMR 4895 to be a light load by any means. Most people I know who use 4895 stay in the 45 to 47 gr. range. I've went as high as 48.5 and considered it pretty hot. There is no use in beating up your rifle and yourself.
 
If those bullets are near .307" diameter and the barrel groove diameter is .3085" diameter, that alone with the maximum chamber headspace can drop peak pressure enough to make this event happen with a normal max powder charge.

All Garand barrels made in arsenal's were broach rifled. Broach teeth had about .3085" diameters when new but wore down to about .3075" from rifling several barrels. Then they were scrapped. Service bullets' diameters ranged from .3070" to almost .3080". Arsenal match bullets were all about .3086" diameter so they would be accurate in all those barrels.

Garand throat erosion gauges measure wear on the rifling lands, not the groove diameter.
 
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The normal process that happens when a cartridge is fired is for the primer to move to the rear and unseat itself as the pressures begin to rise, as the pressure begins to increase the case expands radially and sticks to the chamber walls, then the case starts to stretch in both directions. The head will stretch until it contacts the bolt face, re-seating the primer as it does. If the pressure never reaches the proper level then the head wont stretch enough to re-seat the primer.

Right on. If I were OP, I would look at the headspace on the cartridges if "backout" is sufficient to be worrisome, but IMO, .001-.002 is not. When fired, as stated above, primer is driven back against bolt face, then case expands to fill the available space reseating spent primer. The more headspace, the farther primer is pushed back. If HS is excessive, due to chamber or if shoulder has been pushed back a bit too far, primer can be pushed back farther, with enough force to create a "top hat" like bulge at unsupported ogive of the primer.

I suspect the primers that were pushed back were result of slight headspace differences. Slight difference in headspace can be results of differences in "springback" from one case to the next as case is extracted from sizing die, even in same lot of brass or possibly due to the number of times ea. case has been fired.

To prove my theory, I checked headspace and primer backout of a number of FA 60 Match M72 cases fired in a Win. Mod 70 Match rifle w/snug chamber. Believe the primer backout to be directly related to the slight variations in headspace from one case to the next as measured with a Mo's cartridge headspace micrometer.

Once fired case headspace.................primer pushed out
.002----------------------------------------------.008"
.0025"...(2 cases)----------------------------.009 & .010"

Had one only case from same lot of brass that had been fired in above mentioned rifle, reloaded and fired again in same rifle (resulting in fireformed case). I push shoulder back .001 to .002" on fired brass when reloading for this rifle.

Reloaded fired case headspace............primer pushed out
.005"----------------------------------------------.0000 to .005" (My caliper is slightly off zero so probably zero backout)

I randomly checked several different caliber cases, all handloads, fired in both gas (G) and bolt (B) guns and found all had some primer movement:

308 W (B) .003 to .005" (Just under max listed load)
338 WM (B) .002--.003" (These were loaded on warm side)
375 h&h (B) .001'
.223 (G) .001-.002"* (Warm load)
243 WSSM (G) .003-.004"*
* Both rifles were AR's which unlock bolt before pressure subsides in bbl.
(No cases showed any signs of gas leakage)

As for OP's loads, shooting Garands for years in competition, I found 47 gr. H4895 to use same sight settings as
either M2 ball or M72 Match ammo originally issued for the Garand. (Takes a tad more IMR according to Sierra Manual but 46.3 gr of IMR = 2700 fps and 48.1 yields 2800.)

M2 Ball listed at 2740 fps and M72 @ 2640.

A new cartridge was developed in 1938 that was essentially a duplicate of the old M1906 round, but loaded with IMR 4895 propellant and a new flat-based bullet that had a gilding metal jacket and a different lead alloy, and weighed 152 grains (9.8 g) instead of 150 grains (9.7 g). This 1938 pattern cartridge, the Cartridge, Caliber .30, Ball, M2 achieved a muzzle velocity of 2,805 ft/s (855 m/s) and muzzle energy of 2,656 ft·lbf (3,601 J).[15] Its maximum range was approximately 3,450 yd (3,150 m).[16]

In 1938, the unstained, 9.8 grams (151 gr), flat-base bullet combined with the .30-06 case became the M2 ball cartridge. The M2 Ball specifications required 2,740 feet per second (840 m/s) minimum velocity, measured 78 feet (24 m) from the muzzle.[19] M2 Ball was the standard-issue ammunition for military rifles and machine guns until it was replaced by the 7.62×51mm NATO round in 1954.

OP might try neck sizing a few cases fired in his rifle; I'd bet the primers stay put.;)

Regards,
hm
 
The more headspace, the farther primer is pushed back.

OP might try neck sizing a few cases fired in his rifle;
Technically speaking, the more head clearance there is, the more primers back out. Headspace in the .30-06 chamber is measured from bolt face to chamber shoulder reference diameter. With a 30-06 case at minimum specs for head to shoulder in a chamber at maximum spec headspace, there can easily be .010" head clearance when the round fires.

I doubt a fired case would chamber in a Garand after being fired in it then neck only sized. Their body diameters are typically too big to fit in the chamber. Such was normal in all the Garand's I've used.

About this from the above member:
I randomly checked several different caliber cases, all handloads, fired in both gas (G) and bolt (B) guns .......

Both rifles were AR's which unlock bolt before pressure subsides in bbl.
(No cases showed any signs of gas leakage)
This has been claimed by several. Never seen any proof that happens. Nobody ever mentioned the blowback from gas in the barrel going around the case in the chamber back through bolt clearance spaces. That'll happen if this is reality.
 
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CCI #34 primers are just magnum primers. IMR4895 doesn't need magnum primers.
47.5 of IMR4895 with a 150 is slightly under current minimum for a lead cored bullet. Highly unlikely to cause you any grief though. Including the primers doing anything. 47.0 grains was a full grain over the Start load in my old Lyman manual, at one time. (The No$ler E-Tip on Hodgdon's site is a solid copper bullet and doesn't count.)
One or 2 thou is not a great big amount. Not enough to worry about.
"...M2 Ball specifications required 2,740 feet per second..." .30 M2 Ball ran at 2800 fps. No such thing as .30 M2 Ball until 1940. Anyway all testing of the Rifle was done using .30 M1 ammo with its 174.5 grain bullet at 2647 fps.
"...headspace on the cartridges..." No such thing. Cartridges do not have headspace.
"...OP might try neck sizing..." Absolutely not. All semi-autos require FL resizing every time.
"...Takes a tad more IMR..." Yep. A whole 3 grains for the start load. Two for the max. However, H and IMR4895 are not the same thing and their data is not interchangeable. Sight settings really don't matter.
 
I doubt a fired case would chamber in a Garand after being fired in it then neck only sized. Their body diameters are typically too big to fit in the chamber. Such was normal in all the Garand's I've used.

You are probably correct as to neck sizing not being a good idea due to the possibility of a slam-fire should a case not chamber fully in a Garand. I mis-spoke using term neck sizing. It's been too many years since I shot the Garand in competition and I've forgotten the numbers, but IIRC, I set my FL die to push shoulder back .004 or .005" for the Garand and only .001 to .002" for bolt guns. I did use neck sizer for bolt gun for a while, but evolved into FL die set to barely bump shoulder even in bolt guns as brass would require FL sizing at some point in time even in BG to prevent bolt becoming a bit sticky. Minimal FL sizing eliminated that problem.

About this from the above member: This has been claimed by several. Never seen any proof that happens. Nobody ever mentioned the blowback from gas in the barrel going around the case in the chamber back through bolt clearance spaces. That'll happen if this is reality.

You may be correct on this point. I am only repeating what a very well known AR armorer (builder) told me when he built my first AR. He said you could not rely on a case mic to set sizing die for an AR due to the early unlocking of the bolt which allowed more brass expansion than in other designs. Based on design, I can see where it would be possible to do so prior to pressure dropping to zero, but who knows for sure. I do know that the BCG, bolt, chamber and brass has more carbon on them after firing a few rounds than does the Garand or a bolt gun, but this could be coming up through the firing pin and leakage between the bolt key and gas tube rather than from the other end??

One word of caution when loading for the Garand or M14. Make sure to fully seat primers and be sure that cases are sufficiently sized to FULLY chamber in your rifle to avoid problems w/slam-fire which can be disastrous if it occurs out of battery!

Regards,
hps
 
CCI #34 primers are just magnum primers.

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URC.jpg

CCI® No. 34 and No. 41 MILITARY RIFLE PRIMERS

Military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. The military arsenals accomplish this using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts. CCI makes rifle primers for commercial sale that matches military sensitivity specs that reduce the chance of a slam-fire when other factors go out of control*. If you’re reloading for a military semi-auto, look to CCI Military primers.
*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30
"...

M2 Ball specifications required 2,740 feet per second..." .30 M2 Ball ran at 2800 fps. No such thing as .30 M2 Ball until 1940. Anyway all testing of the Rifle was done using .30 M1 ammo with its 174.5 grain bullet at 2647 fps.

A new cartridge was developed in 1938 that was essentially a duplicate of the old M1906 round, but loaded with IMR 4895 propellant and a new flat-based bullet that had a gilding metal jacket and a different lead alloy, and weighed 152 grains (9.8 g) instead of 150 grains (9.7 g). This 1938 pattern cartridge, the Cartridge, Caliber .30, Ball, M2 achieved a muzzle velocity of 2,805 ft/s (855 m/s) and muzzle energy of 2,656 ft·lbf (3,601 J).[15] Its maximum range was approximately 3,450 yd (3,150 m).[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield

"...headspace on the cartridges..." No such thing. Cartridges do not have headspace.

Case head to bolt face clearance (which I referred to as cartridge headspace) can be measured and controlled using this tool:

RCBS - PRECISION MIC CARTRIDGE HEADSPACE TOOL
Open Expanded View+ Click Image to Zoom
  • t_749006314_1.jpg
Description
These micrometer cartridge headspace tools will enable you to set up full length sizing dies for the precise amount of shoulder bump you wish. Precision Mic gages are initially calibrated on a once-fired case, and the micrometer will read shoulder set back variation from initial set-up. Each Precision Mic kit also includes a bullet seating depth tool for initial seater die set-up.

Big Book Catalog, Issue:68, Page:532
Sinclair, Issue:5B, Page:035


http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...n-mic-cartridge-headspace-tool-prod33476.aspx


"...OP might try neck sizing..." Absolutely not. All semi-autos require FL resizing every time.

Absolutely correct, as stated in my last post, I mis-spoke....should have said set FL die to bump shoulder a minimum of .004-.005" ( IIRC).

Sight settings really don't matter.

Sight settings only matter if you want to hit the bull.;)
If velocity is same or reasonably close (to M2 or M73, which was issued for the Garands from the '50's until 60 or 61 when the M14 replaced it (based on my memory) the trajectory should be reasonably close from 200-1000 yds. which allows for by same sight settings being used at the various ranges (as verified by my {ancient} score books.):)
My point is that this would indicate the load is an acceptable load for the Garand.

Regards,
hps
 
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"...headspace on the cartridges..." No such thing. Cartridges do not have headspace.
Most of us think they do. They're measured just like rimless bottleneck headspace gauges are; head to shoulder reference diameter. A SAAMI rep mentioned to me decades ago it's a common term that's used by many people.
 
Bullets are .308 dia. on the nose after measuring 30 random pieces using conventional micrometer, not digital calipers. Fired primers look flat but not flowed around fp hole using 48gr. IMR 4895. I will go back to 47 gr. and start again. Seems like every reloading manual lists a different starting load and max load for 30-06 and some don't even list 150gr FMJ. BTW as reference, I used SAAMI No Go gauge to check bolt headspace. Sorry I mentioned TE, I know it's not pertinent to my issue. I may try just full length sizing some cases, not small base die sizing. Also, all my cases are once fired I know since I fired them first. Thanks for all the input and I hope I didn't cause too much commotion. I'm just trying to make sure all is safe.
 
Small base dies are not necessary when you know brass was fired in your rifle. Your load is a good one for the M1. The only thing you could do to be safer is to get a good "PRECISION MIC CARTRIDGE HEADSPACE TOOL" and check each loaded round to be sure that all cases will chamber fully in your rifle.

There is a bridge in the M1 receiver which contacts the hook on back of firing pin until bolt is in battery and prevents firing pin from reaching primer OF PROPERLY SIZED CASE W/FULLY SEATED PRIMER. Once bolt turns as it goes into battery, the hook lines up with a groove in the bridge and allows FP to strike primer. ANYTHING that causes a "high primer" can result in a slam fire due to the floating firing pin in the Garand which pecks the primer every time the bolt slams home. An oversized case (or high primer) can stop bolt short of coming into battery and should a slam fire occur it can ruin your day.

Make it a practice to run your thumb over the case head of every loaded round before trying to chamber it to assure flush seating of primer.

You're on the right track; enjoy your Garand!

Edit to add: Google "Garand slam fire" for a few examples.

Regards,
hps
 
54 Dodge, if you're going to use GO, No GO gauges on your Garand the bolt must be disassembled and the ejector removed so it doesn't contact the gauge and effect the readings.

At this point I would replace the springs since you have everything apart already. The M1 service pack springs are available from Wolff for $25.99. Every spring in the rifle is included.
https://www.gunsprings.com/GARAND/M1 (US) .30/cID2/mID88/dID111#504
 
Bullets are .308 dia. on the nose after measuring 30 random pieces using conventional micrometer, not digital calipers.
The ones I've measured range from .3070" (some arsenal 7.62 NATO bullets) to .3092" (Lapua D46 185-gr. rebated base match bullet) diameter. That's with a micrometer calibrated against a Johannson gauge block .30000" thick.

30-06 barrels I've measured for groove diameter range from .3070" to .3115". Arsenal Garand barrels were between .3077" and .3085".
 
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The bolts slam back hard and hammer the rear of the receiver. These receivers crack from the constant abuse.
Garand receivers will outlast many barrels worn out with normal maximum loads producing normal port pressures.

Some haven had 1/4th their ammo (~ 1000 rounds) at near proof load pressures. All magnafluxed for cracks before rebarreling.
 
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Garand receivers will outlast many barrels worn out with normal maximum loads producing normal port pressures.
Please note I referred to heavy loads. The past supervisor of the Ogdon Military Depot has shown me many examples of cracked M-1 receivers.:)
 
Define heavy loads. As long as the recoil spring is in good condition and you keep your loads within max chamber pressure standards you wont have a problem. There are some who do really stupid things, like lubricating their cartridges, that cause their problems but as long as you stay within the design standards the rifle will perform great.
 
Slow burning powders can cause high port pressures which will bend op-rods in the Garand. Use proper powders in the burn rate range of 4895 with 150-168 gr. bullets and keep your loads in the 2700-2800 fps velocity and keep your Garand happy. Have shot a good number of 180's @ longer ranges, but kept velocity around 2600 w/o problems.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

Regards,
hm
 
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